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Running Vegetable Oil for fuel???

Discussion in '1982-Present GM Diesel' started by josephn, Jun 11, 2002.

  1. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    What do you have to do to run vegetable oil as fuel and which oil is the best?
     
  2. CustomCruiser

    CustomCruiser Registered Member

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  3. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    The older diesel engines with pre-chamber can be operated problem-free with all sorts of oil. The oil should contain however little acid and the whole makes only one sense with vegetable oil. I use coldly pressed oil from a plant named raps (dont know the american word). This should be warmed up however to 70°C (158°F) before the injection pump. Otherwise no structural alteration measures are necessary. If you liked to have more exact information, feel free and ask me.

    Bio Diesel is completely different history. I cannot recommend this fuel, because it works like dilution. The injection pump, injectors are not sufficiently lubricated and parts from plastic will to be attacked. Also these methyls ester arrives in the engine oil and dilutes this. A more frequent oil change is necessary and costs additionally money. Ecologically it makes also no sense, because Bio Diesel requires the same energy with the production, thus the same costs caused as Diesels.
     
  4. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    Is it possible to run a 50/50 mix of veg oil and diesel fuel? Would you have to heat it then?
     
  5. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    50:50 is always possible in the summer. Only in the winter the engine starts very hard

    Is the enterprise with vegetable oil interesting for you? I thought the gallon of Diesel cost only $1 with you.
     
  6. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    Yeah it is interesting. I have allways been interested in alternitive fuels and energy stuff. I wonder if there are any additives you could add to the veg oil to kind of winterize it. I just think it would be kinda cool to do.

    Diesel here ranges from a $1.39 to a $1.60 now depending on where you go.
     
  7. calcide

    calcide 1/2 ton status

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    You can run a diesel on straight vegetable oil, but it has to be pre-heated or it is too viscous. It has to be at least 175 degrees F to be thin enough. If you decide to run this stuff, you should have it in another fuel tank. Start the engine on the diesel fuel and after it warms up switch to the SVO. When you are ready to shut it down, switch back to the diesel to clean all the SVO out of the lines. Also, it is possible to start and stop the engine on the SVO, but this can cause coking on the injectors. If you are using used oil, it is also important to filter it well before you use it (obvious).

    A mixture of SVO and kerosene can also be used, with a mixture of about 20-30% kerosene (or jet fuel). Supposedly this mixture is unstable and can clog the fuel lines and is not recommended for long term use.

    Biodiesel is SVO that has been processed into diesel fuel. The process involves mixing in methanol and lye to produce biodiesel and glycerin. Biodiesel has GREATER lubricity than modern low-sulfur petroleum diesel, but you will experience a 5% overall power loss (it contains less energy than dino diesel). The cloud point of biodiesel is between 60 and 25 degrees F, depending on what your SVO is. New oil will have a lower cloud point than used oil or oil made from animal fat. So, you don't want to use it in the winter if you live where it gets cold. Because methanol is hard on rubber parts, extended use of biodiesel may require that the rubber parts in the fuel system to be replaced with alcohol resistant synthetic parts. Biodiesel is mixable with regular diesel fuel in any proportion.
     
  8. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    I solve the problem in the winter by two tanks. I start the engine with Diesel and switch, when the operating temperature is reached. In addition I have a small heat exchanger before the heater radiator, which warms up the oil by the coolant. To get the warmth faster, I built in a glow plug into this heat exchanger, which I can switch on if it is necessary. So I can operate my engine with vegetable oil also with less than 32°F.

    For us vegetable oil is very favorable, because it is not taxed. It costs $0.90 per gallon instead of $3,20.
     
  9. calcide

    calcide 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Ecologically it makes also no sense, because Bio Diesel requires the same energy with the production, thus the same costs caused as Diesels.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is incorrect. Turning plants into diesel fuel and then burning it is a process that has no net gain of carbon to the atmosphere, reducing carbon dioxide emissions. The CO produced by the engine running on biodiesel is created from carbon that was removed from the air by the plant. Biodiesel also has much lower emissions of other compounds.

    Even if biodiesel made from new oil takes the same amount of energy (biodiesel produces 2.5X the energy required to produce it) to produce as dino diesel, using waste oil discounts the cost of the production of the oil itself. This would make it cost less than diesel.

    Is the oil you use made from rapeseed a.k.a. canola?
     
  10. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    ... there was someone faster...

    Calcide, you are right with your explanation (oh could I explain myself only better in your language). We have here much experience with bio diesel (RME), but I am not convinced of it. I already repaired some damage of tractor engines, which were connected my judgement with RME. By the way Bosch permits the use of RME with no injection pump.
     
  11. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    Bio diesel must be refined exactly like diesels, on the same stage of the distillate. Therefore the same quantity of energy is necessary for the production.
    Bio Diesel has a higher output at nitrogen oxides (NOx), therefore is insignificant, it less carbon produced it.
    Bio Diesel has a large advantage however in any case. The raw material grows each year on the new.

    Yes! That is it! Rapeseed is this plant (flowers yellow and stinks).
     
  12. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    As far as mixing SVO with kerosene what do you mean by unstable? Like explosive unstable?
     
  13. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    Also does svo leave big black clouds like regular diesel fuel? Just curious.
     
  14. calcide

    calcide 1/2 ton status

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    I do not know how biodiesel is mass produced, so it may be fractionated like regular oil. In that case, it would need even more energy to produce than fossil diesel, since fossil oil comes out of the ground and biodiesel has to be made. But, I don't know if that's how it's done commercially.

    The way I have read how to make biodiesel ( I haven't had time to try it yet) is very energy efficient. Add vegetable oil, alcohol and lye in the proper proportions. Mix vigorously and then let stand. The mixture will settle into 2 layers, biodiesel on top and glycerine on bottom.

    The information I have also states that biodiesel will give a reduction of NOX emissions of 5-10% depending on the age and tuning of the engine.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    By the way Bosch permits the use of RME with no injection pump.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that Bosch does not allow RME to be used with their injection pumps?
     
  15. calcide

    calcide 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    As far as mixing SVO with kerosene what do you mean by unstable? Like explosive unstable?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Unstable as in it "produces unreliable results and can be damaging to a diesel engine if not done carefully".

    I don't know if SVO makes a big black cloud. Maybe Rene can tell you. I hope so, I dig that. It would be even better with SVO from a McDonalds, then the cloud would smell like french fries!

    Interesting factoid: The diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil.
     
  16. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    Both diesel and biodiesel are manufactured in the same procedure (distillation). Only the raw material differs once in crude oil and the other one time in non fossil oil.

    When distilling the oil is divided into different groups (parliamentary groups) by hydrocarbons. The oil is warmed up in a tube furnace to 680°F and supplied to the distilling column (fractionating tower). The largest part of the oil evaporates. The liquid remaining parts collect themselves at the soil of the tower. The oil vapor rise by the bubble trays upward. A return of cold distillate provides for a gradual drop of temperature over the entire height of the column. Thus cooling themselves ascending steams and condense again to a liquid. Depending upon boiling point steams of the individual parliamentary groups rise differently and can be caught in such a way on the individual soils and separated. So far so well. Diesel develops thereby at the second soil for fractionating tower and gasoline 3 stages more highly. From 100% oil can developed 30% Diesel fuel. There is another kind to manufacture fuels however, but that would go too far into chemistry.

    ... it is correct that Rudolph Diesel 1893-97 designed its engine for the enterprise with heavy oil. It used the oil of the barrier nut. In the meantime however some changed and new engines like the Duramax is for the enterprise with vegetable oil completely unsuitable.

    ... yes, Bosch has fear of defects, which can be caused by bio diesels. Therefore they do not allow bio diesel for their injection pumps.

    Some of my friends said that they always get hunger, if they drive behind me. Which reason that probably has?

    (A great photo in your profil)
     
  17. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    Would a 60:40 or 70:30 Diesel to vege oil be better? With out heating it? I don't really want to run two tanks but if I have to I just might do it.

    What about power, mileage, and smoke with SVO?
     
  18. josephn

    josephn 1/2 ton status

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    Also what is the best oil to use Corn,Canola.....????
     
  19. René

    René 1/2 ton status

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    I know two people, which drive vegetable oil mixture in american diesel engines (6,5td and a Cummins). In the summer a mixture to 50:50 is completely unproblematic, however the start of injection should be early.
    You can take each oil that is as liquid as possible, thus also to mummies salad oil.
    Theoretically the fuel consumption should sink and rise the performance, but I cant determine no difference. Only the engine noise is somewhat softer (larger gate-controlled delay time/ignition time).
    Please tell me your experiences...
     
  20. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    This is some awsome information! I am extreamly interested in the appropriate mixture of oil to fuel. This is very cost effective. What about making fuel? Does anyone know the correct mixture of the three variables?
    Thanks!
     

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