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SM465 rebuild questions

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Russell, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Hey guys!

    Ok, here is the situation:

    I've got a 10 spline SM465 / NP205 combo I just got for my truck. The 205 is in great shape, works flawlessly, however, the 465 has a problem with one of the gears. Its the gear that is right up against the back of the transmission housing, 4th gear I think (see the pic I've attached) It is extremely loose, and is loose enough that you'd think that it wasn't attached at all, despite turning the whole tranny if you grab it and turn it (it wiggles side to side a ton too)

    If you want, I've got a video I can show of me wiggling the gear.

    Basically, what I need to know, is what kind of specialty tools will I need to fix it? I'm thinking that I am just going to build my own press. I'll use my bobcat's hydraulic system, and an old ram from one of the old farm machines, should provide several tons of pressure, just might be a bit quicker than I'd want it to be. Bearing puller I imagine I could either make (any genious designs?) or rent from somewhere.

    Anything else I might need?

    If this is indeed 4th gear, can I safely assume that it broke the snap ring that holds it in place? I hear it is best to just replace that snap ring, along with the 3rd gear snap ring with a little metal sleeve that doesn't give the 3rd or 4th gear anywhere to move.

    What would be best to clean the gears, and housing out with once I get all the gears and stuff out of the tranny? The housing has a lot of nasty black sludge inside of it, and I'd rather start clean than not.

    Third, I've got a low milage 2wd SM465, in excellent shape. Fluid looks like it was put in there yesterday, and it has twice as much material on the syncro rings than this one does. Other than the 35 spline output shaft vs 10 spline on the 4x4, I believe they are identical internally correct? Can I just swap the output shafts between the two, and just use all the bearings and stuff from the newer 2wd tranny?

    Last, what will I HAVE to replace if I do a rebuild on the transmission, less that little metal sleeve to replace the 3rd and 4th gear snap rings? If its gonna cost me more to rebuild the thing than it will to buy a new one, I don't wanna even bother wasting my time pulling the tranny apart.

    Thanks for your time and help guys! I just wanna know what I am getting myself into before I get into it. Stuff like this annoys me though :P Absolutely always wind up with some sort of a major setback like this... I don't need this transmission to be perfect by any means, I just need a transmission that doesn't slip outta gear, and drives reasonably nice. It will be replaced with an NV4500 as soon as I can afford one.

    EDIT -- Sorry, forgot the pics, here we go!

    Here I am pointing at the loose gear:

    [​IMG]

    Here is a pic of the rest of the 4x4 tranny internals:

    [​IMG]

    And finally, here is a picture of the 2wd donor tranny internals:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    The gear you're pointing at is 1rst (L, 6.55:1) the next gear up from it is reverse. You'll notice there is a shift collar between them but no synchro rings(brass). The reverse gear is straight cut.

    4th is at the front of the tranny, technically it's the end of the input gear.

    I'm guessing that the 2WD tranny does not have the same 'play' in first gear?

    Rene
     
  3. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    I'm thinking the needle bearings for that wiggly gear could be done...The gears themselves are able to freely spin on the mainshaft, each at their own speed. When the shifter pushes one of the collars over it engages that set of gears. The shift collar/synchro assembly is splined on the mainshaft.

    Should be able to remove the input gear from the front, and then finagle the mainshaft out from that point. The end of the mainshaft at the front pilots into the end of the input gear. It's a lot simpler than it looks.

    If it's anything like my NV4500 there shouldn't be much more than a snap ring to deal with to get that gear off the end.

    Rene
     
  4. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Nope, the 2wd tranny has no play in the first gear at all. Its totally solid.

    So, what would be involved with changing the bearings from the 2wd tranny to the 4x4 tranny?

    Cause, as far as I can tell that is the sole issue with this transmission...

    Here is that video of the play in the gear :eek1:

    http://www.zieglerdigital.ca/downloads/loosegear.mpg

    :doah:
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2005
  5. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Wow...

    I'd guess the bearings would press in, but being needle bearings it shouldn't take much to change. Of course that means taking both trannies apart, and if you're going that far I'd just swap the 1rst gear from the 2WD tranny onto the back end of the 4WD mainshaft and put it back together.

    Rene
     
  6. MoonMan

    MoonMan Registered Member

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    From what I can see in the overhaul manuals (and remember from the rebuild), first speed gear (Low) rides on a bushing. That means the wear will have to be either in the bushing or the inside of the gear. Either way you are going to have to remove the mainshaft to determine the problem. Also, you will need to check for wear of the thrust washer that rides between first speed gear and the rear main bearing, since first gear gear was able to move around so much. While I used a press to assemble my transmission, in doing other work I found that it is just as easy to use a hammer and brass drifts to assemble the parts (taking care to not get any brass particles in the tranny).
     
  7. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Well, I finally built up the courage to tear the tranny apart today. The thrust washer is badly worn, along with both the bushing and the gear. There was a crapload of play in there, infact, the gear just fell off the mainshaft as I was lifting it out.

    While I had it out, I found that basically the whole thing is in terrible shape. The mainshaft, and the countershaft themselves are fine, but I am going to swap both out with the 2wd tranny. For example, the tranny fell out of 3rd gear all the time, I found that was becuase the teeth that the shift collar engage onto have been worn down to more like nubs than teeth like they should be. All of the gears have some degree of play on their bushings, and the syncros are all very badly worn. The bearings for the front and back of both the main and counter shafts are in excellent shape though :)

    Basically, I'll wind up dissassembling the two mainshafts, and installing everything from the 2wd shaft onto the 4x4 shaft, and haul everything else off for scrap.

    My question now, though, is what I am gonna have to replace? Will I have no choice but to replace anything in there, or will I be fine with just replacing the two snap rings on the countershaft with one of those 5 dollar sleeves?


    One other thought I just had, the tranny is a 10 spline unit as a 4x4, and is attached to the transfer case with that little drive sleeve (in excellent shape BTW) does anyone make a drive sleeve that goes from 35 spline to 10 spline so I could just run the 2wd tranny? Or does it have a different length output shaft along with the different spline count?

    Thanks for your patience and help!

    Russ
     
  8. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    No 35 spline 'sleeve dealies' AFAIK...

    That tranny must have been run low on lube for a long time to get that bad. My SM465 has near 300,000 miles on it and does not jump out of any gear, is quiet, shifter isn't even too sloppy. The syncho's are a little worn though, but not terribly.

    I'd swap the 2WD stuff onto the 10 spline 4WD mainshaft and re-assemble. If you need a snap ring or two you should be able to get them in at any tranny shop.

    Rene
     
  9. 79k20350

    79k20350 3/4 ton status

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    If the gear is loose then the bushing is prolly shot. this is how mine was. also your mainshaft looks shot. the splines are pretty well worn. if you need to replace the shaft then all the bushing (theres 3 of them) need to be replaced.
     
  10. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Now that I look at it, the splines do look worn in that pic...

    However, they arn't. There is no play between the splines and the little drive sleeve, so I'll assume its fine for now.

    I guess I am just gonna have to find a press, and drive everything off the 4x4 and 2wd mainshafts and swap stuff around. All three bushings are in dire need of replacement for sure...

    So, if I have a press, I technically won't need to replace anything in the tranny correct? The 2wd tranny is in fantastic shape, very little wear on the shift forks, or syncros, everything looks brand new. Only 1 chip missing out of the reverse idler, none out of anything else. You can tell that low gear was probally never used, the shift fork looks brand new for low gear, and there are no chips on the low gear's teeth :)

    Basically, I just need to know if it is possible to press those bushings off, or if I'll have to crack them off with a chisel, and buy a new set to install by making them cherry red and dropping them on.
     
  11. 79k20350

    79k20350 3/4 ton status

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    the bushings are like 10 bucks a pop. and you need 3 of them. they are almost impossible to get off. the reason why you have no slp is beacause the sleev and the shaft wore together, they fit perfectly together but dont seem loose even though theyre worn. ask me how i know, i thought mine was ok, (same situation as you) but then i stripped my mainshaft :doah: if you want ill sell you my mainshaft for 50 + shipping. its more than fair (100 new for shaft, 30 for all bushings) its never used and i just dont need it. (i found a 465/205 w/ 32 splines :D ) let me know, its much better than putting used stuff together only to have to take it out in 10,000 miles cause somethings broke. :doah:
     
  12. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    I'll take a better pic of it tommorow so we can compare, and see if they are badly worn out :)

    This 465 won't be in the truck for very long. As soon as I find a 2wd NV4500, the whole mess will be coming out, and will be replaced with the 2wd NV4500, with a divorced 205 t-case I've got :) So, I just need it to work until I find that NV4500 (which may be a while since I gotta find one in MY price range, which is far below what most of those things go for, lol) which is why I hate to spend money on this 465, unless I have to. This truck will never be wheeled, but may occasionally haul a heavy bobcat on a trailer, and occasionally be flogged off a red light, lol
     
  13. MoonMan

    MoonMan Registered Member

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    The 2nd speed gear bushing is the only one that will need to be split with a chisel as the rest are able to be pressed off.
     
  14. 79k20350

    79k20350 3/4 ton status

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    they can be pressed off but why bother if you have a new main shaft. no point in reusing them
     

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