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Some academic discussion for those interested.

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Jagged, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. Jagged

    Jagged 1 ton status

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    Okay... first rule, I'm throwing this up for some academic discussion. Academic discussion can be heavily opinionated, but avoid flaming and irrational comments please.


    Here's my premise:

    The past 5-6 years I have not been educating myself about issues I feel are important. Nor have I been active in trying to ensure protection of my values. I've been changing this recently, spending a lot of time in personal reflection. I used to think of myself as a fairly conservative republican, but not so much any more. Through research, I found my beliefs pretty much walk the party line of the Libertarians. There's a few issues in their platform I don't agree with 100%, but I feel more comfortable calling myself a Libertarian than a Republican.

    And here's why:
    Quite frankly, I'm fed up with the trend of our government and media. I support the decisions of our leaders, but I'm bound by oath to. This doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything. I personally believe that a lot of government aid systems are communist by nature and have no business in my country. Social Security, Welfare, and Medicare just to name a few. I do have family members who are in serious financial trouble right now who are currently aided by these systems. It is my belief that individuals should be more responsible for themselves, and that I should not have to pay for the lack of planning on other people's part. "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine" is something that comes to my mind.

    These systems, although good on paper and admirable intent, are inherently flawed. They are flawed and they fail for the same reason why the USSR no longer exists: the human element. There will be people who try to abuse any system. That's just the way things are. Eliminate the system, and the abusers are no longer taking from those who may deserve help. There are plenty of charitable organizations that are capable of helping those in need.

    I do however, feel that government should still maintain certain land. One of the things in the Libertarian platform is the relinquishing of government-owned land to the private sector. Some government-owned or subsidized land is necessary for the protection of our resources. In this are I include parks, national wildlife areas/refuges, transportation infrastructure, and government buildings and related properties. I can't decide which side I stand on about the issue of eminent domain, I can easily argue both for and against it.

    I feel that each individual has a right to privacy, however in light of recent events, I find it difficult to justify complete privacy and anonymity (sic). Use of the SSN for identification purposes (although explicitly disallowed), has got to stop whether or not the Social Security system remains. Why must I be reduced to a 9-digit number? Heck, from someone's SSN you can figure out the general area they were born in and a rough time period as well. Not to mention the identity theft possibilities.

    As far as my stance on the 2nd amendment, and my right to keep and bear arms: if it's a firearm, blade, or any personal protective device... and I want it, I should be able to have it. Stupid people with guns scare me, but that happens anyways. My hope would be social darwinism takes over.

    On the subject of conscription (the draft), I have full faith in the all-volunteer armed services. However, there must be laws in effect such that we can call upon the able-bodied people of this nation to defend it. I believe there should be specific guidelines set for the process of approving a draft.







    More to come later, but this should be some fuel for the fire of a good discussion. Keep it clean, no hits below the belt, and don't bite any ears off!
     
  2. big dan

    big dan 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Im not real active in politics so I cant really say which side Im on. I dont consider myself conservative or liberal. I always side with the group that supports what I believe most. however I do agree with pretty much everything that you said. when it comes to things such as land ownership and gun laws I get fairly active. I believe that there should be certain land owned by the government but I do not really agree with eminent domain. some parts may be good but I feel more like it is being used to take land from private owners to build housing projects and shopping centers. I know of two farms near cities in my area that have been bought by the government in the past few years and have been completely covered with pavement. both farmers owned a significant amount of land and used this land to support their families. they both fought but ended up having to settle or they would have recieved no money at all. I am a huge supporter of small farms, mainly because I grew up on and around them my entire life. For the most part it is the life of many in this area and I hate to see it taken away and paved. As far as gun laws go, there are certain people that guns should be kept away from but I think lawful citizens should have the right to do as they please and if someone wants a gun bad enough they will get one unless all guns are removed from the country and then there are still means of getting them.
     
  3. Jagged

    Jagged 1 ton status

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    I feel pretty much the same about eminent domain. It is good for something like a desprately needed infrastructure project (road widening or something to relieve traffic congestion), but the process for it sucks royally.
     
  4. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    I pick Eminent Domain.

    It's bad because it can be abused, and it's almost welfare-ish. The constitution needs to have specific rules for it's use. Some cases are beneficial, but then that becomes a welfare concept. The individual losing his land is not having his interests protected if he refuses to give up his land, and it will be at his personal (not necessarily financial) expense to support whatever the proposed community benefit is.
    The government can go offer an individual market value or more for his property any time they want, irrespective of law. Eminent Domain simply allows the government to force unwilling landowners to give up thier property.

    Aw heck, I'll tap on the anonymity issue, too... I prefer to live as under the radar as I realistically can. I don't ever want a camera in my house or watching my front lawn (someone else watching it I mean), I don't want people to know what TV shows I like, and I don't want there to be very much information available publicly about me.
    An example of a desire to be anonymous;
    A co-worker is very politically charged. He constantly makes mention of his blog, so I decide I'd like to view it one day. I also know that he has a tracking service to find out who has read his blog as best it can tell him. I also happen to live nearby this coworker.
    I'm not politically open at work at all, I find it very inappropriate. However, I am curious about his blog, since he is very proud of it, so I'm not snooping by reading it. But if I read it from my house, and he were able to track it to a reasonable belief that it were me, I would most likely be drawn into a political debate and forced to share my politics when I don't want to. Right now we're friends, and I think he's slightly insane... I think if my politics were known, we would probably not be friends and not work together well, he's a bit personal and vindictive in that way.
    I know that's a bizarre example...
     
  5. Jagged

    Jagged 1 ton status

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    The simple solution to the blog issue is to use a proxy.
     
  6. PhoenixZorn

    PhoenixZorn 1/2 ton status

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    Why do you guys keep talking about Eminem's House like we should care about it or something??





    Just kidding...


    In all seriousness, I have my own belief system... actually, I can't call it a belief system... like Jay and Silent Bob, I have an "Idea" system. This country's politics battles have become religion, and that is the biggest problem we face every day. We are fighting a holy war in our own country, against our own government. Dubya has successfully revoked at least 3 of our amendments in the Bill of Rights, without actually saying anything about any specific amendment in any of the new bills he has passed. All of these bills have something to do with "homeland security" which is another way of saying "we have control over everything you do, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it." You can strike another 2 of the articles in the Bill of Rights just because they don't apply anymore in today's world...

    Without being too specific - because I don't know enough to be specific - some of the people we have elected to high offices in this country would like nothing more than to be completely rid of the 2nd Amendment, our right to bear arms and our right to maintain a state militia. Loosely translated, the 2nd amendment states that if the citizens feel the government has taken too many liberties and freedoms away from the general population, that we as citizens have a duty to remove those people who are "in power" from their places of authority. Granted, when our right to free speech, right to representation, the right to assemble, and the right to be secure in your own home are not safe from our government, we should start to worry. These core values that were set forth 300+ years ago should never be in danger of being altered - or in this case, completely revoked and destroyed.

    If the government is successful in revoking the 2nd amendment, which many are trying to do right now, this country will go down faster than a $2.00 whore in the Red Light District... Once one right has been removed permanently, then the rest of our rights will fall by the wayside.

    With that... watch any of these videos if you don't believe that our rights have been destroyed already... http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Olberman
     
  7. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    Kieth Olberman is pretty religiously liberal...
     
  8. justhorsinaround

    justhorsinaround 3/4 ton status

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    The only beef I have so far is with assist programs. While I'm not at all a fan of welfare, what we have here in Az called AHCCS, is a welfare-ish health plan for those who can't afford it. AHCCS paid for all of the hospital bills for Jenn's pregnancy, the birth and subsequent hospital stay of the twins and her and for formula and other food stuffs for a year.

    We were both working plus Jenn being in school but we could nowhere have afforded the week in intensive care that Elora spent.

    Yes it was a handout but at the same time we were being productive citizens just very low income ones.
     
  9. Jagged

    Jagged 1 ton status

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    PhoenixZorn -

    That bit about forcefully removing the government in power, is in the Declaration of Independance.
     
  10. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    The big social programs like social security, etc all stem from the marxist philosophies that have influenced our politicians over the decades. Unfortunately, they win votes, and people want to be taken care of.

    As far as the right to privacy, there has never been any codified right to it found in the cosnstitution. It was "invented" by the supreme court, in order to support the idea that abortion cannot be restricted by individual states. Now, everyone thinks they have a right to privacy, because of what the supreme court said..on that note, the supreme courts job is only to be a final appeals court.. the notion that they determine the constitutionality of laws is one they annointed upon themselves.

    also, being in the "social security system" means that the rights you are entitled to under the bill of rights now become not something due you by birth, but rather they become "priveleges" granted by the state.

    talk about trading liberty for security, eh?

    Seriously, do some research on social security, the marxist influence on our government since the 20's, and the supreme court power grabs over the years. these things are why I call myself a conservative. I vote republican because that's where the conservatives ( ususally ) are.. the dems are leftists, and I don't believe there is such a thing as a moderate.

    My view is that the gov't should only maintain the military, and privatize everything else.


    Tom
     
  11. 3 on the tree

    3 on the tree 1/2 ton status

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    Here's a few starting points:

    Imminent Domain applies ONLY to government facilities/roadways.

    Delete the electoral college

    Take away ALL the perks from our lawmakers, ie retirement, medical, housing. Put them on the same level as their constituents, not elevated above them.

    Enforce ALL immigration laws.

    Zero aid to illegal immigrants. Just round them up, put em in buses, and herd them back across the border.

    Israeli style military reserve. You take your gun and ammo home with you.

    I disagree with the internment camp idea. Just more money and manpower wasted.

    Cut off ALL trade with China. We are mortgaging our country, while financing the growth of theirs.

    If a country makes hostile noises towards the US, then treat them as a hostile country.

    Personally, I think Homeland Security is a load of crap. We spend a buttload of money every year on intelligence services-make them earn their money.

    Get out of Iraq. We laid the foundation. Now, let those people either sink or swim. We cannot keep being the world's babysitter.

    I have a lot more thoughts, but these should be enough the light the fire. I believe most folks here will zero in on what I said about Iraq, and ignore the more important points. As far as I am concerned, Iraq is just the Bush admin's device to stay in power, and make up for NO direction when it comes to domestic issues.
     
  12. PhoenixZorn

    PhoenixZorn 1/2 ton status

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    You are quite possibly right about that, but he makes it a point to NOT speak about religion as much as possible... His countdown outtakes that you find on the internet aren't the spewings or ramblings of a religious liberal, they are the truths of what is happening in this country... Habeas Corpus really is gone... your freedom to say that the president is doing wrong... gone... your freedom to join with other members of your community to discuss what the president has done... gone... And if you do any of these things, and you are accused of being a non-patriot, war criminal, illegal alien, or a plethora of other things that will land you in jail, how do you suppose you will convince someone that you should have a trial to prove that? Dubya has completely revoked the rights of the people...

    All the stuff "3 on the tree" just said would happen if Dubya was out of office... but no one is willing to impeach the guy because they are afraid they might end up in a car "accident" or wake up with a bullet in their wife's head because they did something against the asshole in the whitehouse.... I should probably stop in case the FBI is watching us... they might think I'm a terrorist or something.
     
  13. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    Yeah, I bet the secret service is marching up to your door right now to arrest you for criticizing the President.:rolleyes:


    I don't care about people voicing opinions and disagreeing with the current administration (hell, I do on a lot of issues), but all this conspiratorial cloak and dagger bullsh*t is ridiculous. NOBODY has been silenced, arrested, assasinated or denied their right to free speech in this country and I dare you to show me an actual example.


    For christ's sake, he let that idiot Cindy Sheehan camp out next door to his fuggin vacation home and somehow she has managed to escape the all-powerful clutches of the evil Dubya. Gimme a fuggin break.


    And for the record the most likely "silencing" of someone by a President was Vince Foster. (I'll give you a hint, it was before Bush)
     
  14. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Keith Olbermann is an idiotic putz who should have stuck with something he did good, and that was SportsCenter. The interview I watched a few weeks ago that he did with some clown from UCLA over that Taser video did it. I have never seen such a slanted, unintelligent piece of monkey crap media blurb as that one ever and it's fault. **** him and the horse he rode in on.

    Now onto other matters, some of ya need to quit hording the tin foil.

    Do you actually believe that? How about a dose of reality and just admit that Bush has not committed any crimes (like his predecessor who was impeached not for getting a "job" but for lying) that he can be prosecuted for.

    If we did, then why vote? Certain metro areas of this country have enough votes to sway a whole election sometimes and the rest of us, and that's 99% of us here, would have wasted votes when it comes to the presidential elections.

    That is wrong. They are filed all the time and the court recognizes them and holds hearings on the matters.

    Seriously, what Amendments?
     
  15. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    Dude, Bubba, you're wasting your time. The guys in black helicopters already came and got him for badmouthing Bush on teh intarweb. 'Tis illegal ya know.
     
  16. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

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    And for a person in the Military to say something like that is treasonous:wink1:

    John
     
  17. PhoenixZorn

    PhoenixZorn 1/2 ton status

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    Sure is treasonous... glad I'm not in the military anymore...

    Lemme go find my tinfoil hat... I'm gonna need it for this...

    Bubba, you say that Bush hasn't committed any crimes, yet where is the evidence that supports any of his lies about WMD in Iraq, Sadam being allied with Osama Bin Laden (Sadam hated him as much as we do), and the fact that "The United States of America does not torture prisoners"... bull****...

    In the recent months, Habeas Corpus has in effect been removed from the Consititution. Watch the videos about it on google... yeah, Olbermann is just as biased as Rush, or Mark Belling, or any other syndicated news caster... so don't listen to him, listed to the senators in the Habeas Corpus videos specifically stating that this bill does not temporarily remove Habeas Corpus, but actually eliminates it entirely.

    I'm not going to get into it... if you feel that Olbermann is an idiot, that's fine... if you feel that Fox is a good news station, that's fine too... I urge each of you to visit slashdot.org and read about REAL news stories that aren't biased, and are discussed by people just like you and I. Stories that haven't been influenced by politicians telling a news station what they can and can't say on national TV...
     
  18. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    Like I said. One example, not generalizations.
     
  19. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    You're the one that is making statements, show us evidence that Bush lied. And please don't come up with the tired out DU BS that there were no WMD's found in Iraq because 1. there have been and 2. Saddam had plenty of time to move most of his stuff to another country. Seems like that option is unavailable to the train of thought of anyone that has any criticism, but I know that most people, if given time, will try their damnedest to remove the evidence.

    Please show me evidence supporting your theory that Saddam hated Osama. Please show me evidence contradicting the fact that Saddam openly supported terrorists and terrorist organizations.

    And the whole torture scam. If you are calling those pictures from Abu Gharib torture, I feel for you. That isn't torture.

    Proof please. The game works like this. You make the accusations, you provide the evidence to support your accusations. Otherwise, there is no use to engage in the conversation. There is no need to respond to some off the wall accusations that have no foundation. Lastly, do you even know what Habeas Corpus is? Please show me the evidence, then I'll take it to our judges and tell them that my agency will no longer transport prisoners who have filed writs to their schedule hearings because the United States states that Habeas Corpus has been suspended and we don't have to deal with it anymore........................
     
  20. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    And for the love of God, you are coming close to conjuring up the spirit of Timmay, so for the sake of good discussion, take a step back.............
     

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