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Starting a 4x4 Club

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by mudjunkie 82, Oct 6, 2003.

  1. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    I was thinking about starting a club in my area.The only one we have around here is one of those Jeep clubs that only allow small trucks.nothing with tires over 35"s.any clubbers out there with some input? Talked to a couple of people that had interest.just need a few pointers
     
  2. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    out in Oregon there is a club called OBH. I really like it... they have no meetings, no officers and nuttin else that a wheelin club really doesnt need. They have a mailing list run by yahoo and when someone posts saying when/where they are gonna wheel, everyone on the list gets it and next thing you know you have a good trail ride on your hands. The list is also used for general wheelin discussion and FS/T or wanted posts too. At any rate, whatever shape you want the club to take, I recommend using the mailing list approach to keep peeps informed about events and such... works pretty well.

    j
     
  3. JK5

    JK5 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    I'm in Tiretown 4 Wheelers...based in Akron..
    When I first started going to meetings...3 years ago...
    there was NO Full-size trucks...mainly Jeeps and Broncos... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

    Now there are 4 of us that have big Chevys...so OUR numbers are growing..
    At first...I heard..."You are gonna need a Jeep!!!"
    but after eating Jeeps for an entire weekend...
    they've been re-evaluating!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    If you would like to sit in on a meeting...
    there is one tomorrow at 8:00..
    it may give YOU some ideas... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  4. Polaris

    Polaris 1/2 ton status

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    Some good info from Randall Thomas of Performance Unlimited in WI:
    How to Start your Own Club... by Randall Thomas-

    This brief overlook covering some of the basics in getting your very own off
    road club successfully off the ground.

    GET TOGETHER: The most important thing to any club, is the people within it with
    the driving force to make it happen. Without an enthusiastic few, the rest might
    not fall in line. Gather up your friends and past acquaintances, and begin
    planning and doing things together as a group, rather than simply just meeting
    wherever and whenever. This is the most important step in beginning your quest.

    HAVE FUN!: That’s the point of a club. If it’s more work than it is fun, then
    it’s not worth the effort and no one will benefit in the end. This is not to say
    there will be no work involved, because it takes a lot of effort to create and
    maintain any club of any size. Just be sure there’s a valuable reward for it in
    the end.

    SET DOWN GOALS: Put down in writing everything you wish to achieve in your club,
    as well as everything you wish to avoid. See what the consensus is and go with
    it. You have to start somewhere.

    DON'T LET IT GET YOU DOWN: In any organization where there is more than one
    person, there will be “politics.” This is a necessary evil to make the club fair
    and diverse. However, many a club has been ruined, and many a member has been
    tarnished at one point or another due to interclub controversy. This can be
    avoided by thoughtful effort and compromise within the membership and
    management, but not eliminated .The formal voting procedures to achieve this is
    a significant step up from “just a group of guys getting together.” If you wish
    to make the club all it can be, then proceed here. If not, simply enjoy what you
    have right now.

    ON TO THE FUN STUFF: If you haven’t already, settle on a name for your club.
    Think of how it would sound in a church. Think of how it would look on a jacket.
    Look into the future and see how it might seem 10 years from now. Most
    importantly, make the name what you want it to be.

    BEGIN THE ORGANIZATION: Once you’ve found that this is the thing to do, you will
    want to formally vote in an interim board to get things going. The board needs
    to include at least a President and a Treasurer, but they can not be held by the
    same person. All other positions are purely at the discretion of the club, but
    the Vice President and Secretary positions are usually the standard additions.

    GET THE HARD STUFF OUT OF THE WAY: Either draft up your own, or better yet,
    borrow another organization’s by-laws and modify them for your own use. You can
    always adopt amendments as you go along to better fit your particular club’s
    needs if you overlook any in the beginning. By laws do not have to be
    intricately detailed at first, just cover the bases to get things going.

    DO THE LEGAL STUFF: While it’s not required, it is the best thing your club can
    do. That is to incorporate in your state as a non-profit organization. With this
    legal and official umbrella, your club will be a legitimate organization and can
    benefit from legal liability reduction, and can obtain licenses to hold raffles
    and events as well as acquiring insurance for events and activities. You can
    contact your Secretary of State to gather the papers that you need to
    incorporate. Most States have made this easy enough to be completed by the
    layman, with no need for a lawyer’s assistance.

    MEMBER DUES: By now you already know this is costing money. Not a lot, but some.
    You will have to structure a fair and inviting membership dues program. How much
    you will charge your members is dependant on what benefits you offer, and what
    income is needed. Be fair, yet ambitious. You don’t need to charge any dues if
    it’s not necessary.

    MEETINGS: You will need to hold meetings with advance notice given to all
    members. Club decisions need to take place at a public meeting with detailed
    minutes taken. It is this record of these voted and accepted decisions that keep
    members out of hot water in case an incident would happen later on as a result
    of these decisions. This way no one single person can be held liable as much as
    the entire club acting as a corporation, will be. Thus the importance for
    formally incorporating your club within the State in which the meetings are held.

    COMMUNICATION: In any club, good, solid and reliable communications are the key
    to success. Advance notifications and reliable calendars are what get members to
    events. Periodical and reliable delivery of a simple newsletter can accomplish
    this best.

    PARENT ORGINIZATIONS: You may wish to support regional and nationwide efforts in
    the name of 4-Wheeling by joining, supporting or donating to major
    organizations. This is a good thing and everyone’s assistance is needed
    somewhere. There are a bunch of them out there, so look them over and choose
    which ones are best for your group.

    START ENJOYING THE CLUB: Now that you’re a full fledged club, let the others
    know it. Do this by getting jackets, T-shirts, decals and other club merchandise
    to the members. They will be the best promotional tool. Start your own website,
    and even advertise in the national magazines.

    EVENTS: This is the whole point of any club, to share in the activities of the
    club’s orientation. Get together’s in the form of outings, parties, and rides
    are all apart of the deal. Get input from the members and plan their
    implementation.

    FUND RAISING: At some point you will find the need to create additional income
    for your club. Being incorporated will allow you to do this more efficiently and
    legally without having to be taxed and go through detailed accounting
    procedures. Fund raisers can be incorporated into charging for your own outings
    and events to your members, or by allowing the general population to participate
    and charging them as well. Setting up and selling raffle tickets is also another
    popular method of generating additional income.

    INSURANCE: Always consider acquiring insurance when holding physical activities,
    especially when charging to participate. Event outings of your own members can
    and sometimes should be insured to protect the owner of the property the event
    is held on as well as the members from increased risk to liability lawsuits.
    Nothing can ever prevent you from being sued, only reduce the risk. The only
    thing preventing anyone from suing your club, is to make sure the incident never
    happens in the first place. This is not always possible to foresee or
    anticipate, but simply trying will do more than anything.

    -------------------------------------

    Trail Etiquette and Courtesy...

    Here is a concise guide to being the most courteous and polite off roader you
    can be. Use these guideline recommendations as you see fit, and feel free to
    print them out.

    1. TRAIL ORGANIZATION

    The Trail Spotter is there for you! His or her only purpose is to help
    eliminate on trail traffic jams and to provide a vehicle to follow for those
    unfamiliar with the trails. A single voice reduces confusion, especially in an
    emergency. The Trail Spotter can and will assist when possible. The Trail
    Spotter may call for drivers' meeting at any time. This is to get input or to
    let you know about something important - be there or be square!

    We use CB channel 8, unless the Trail Spotter specifies an alternate. It is not
    mandatory for anyone to have a CB, but it makes life simpler if you do. You'll
    enjoy the trip more as well. Be sure it's in good working order BEFORE the run!

    The last vehicle becomes "Tail End Charlie". This vehicle must always have a CB
    radio and know the group's destination. A winch is recommended. Tail End Charlie
    should immediately report any problems slowing or stopping the group.

    2. SAFETY

    For their own safety, children will not be permitted to roam the trails freely.
    The combination of a child's reduced stature, rough terrain, and lifted trucks
    with factory equipped marginal brakes is a recipe for disaster. If you cannot
    escort your children at all times please leave them in the truck.

    If you're uncomfortable, ask for help! Contrary to the "macho" image, we
    routinely have experienced members walk or talk drivers through the tough spots.
    Just ask! You may be assigned a guide even when you don't ask because someone
    outside your vehicle can see obstacles you can't. We expect you to respect your
    guide's opinions. If in doubt - wait for help!

    Without radio's, you MUST maintain visual contact with the vehicle directly
    behind you. If you can't see it, stop! If everyone follows this rule, any
    stopped vehicle will halt the entire group without further instructions.

    Maintaining contact via radio instead of visual contact allows the group to keep
    a greater (dust free) separation. If you have a radio and can maintain
    communications with the vehicle behind you, this is an acceptable alternative to
    visual contact. (NOTE: We still recommend you stop at all trail junctions until
    the following vehicle can see you!)

    Driving under the influence of alcohol and hallucinogenic drugs is absolutely
    forbidden! No alcohol is permitted in Tellico ORVA. The Rangers at Tellico take
    this rule very seriously. When caught, you will not only face fines levied by
    the Rangers, but you will also be asked to leave that particular trail event,
    and will be excluded from any future trail events.

    3. STOPPING

    If you have to stop or leave the run, let the Trail Spotter know! You are
    encouraged to leave any run you are not comfortable with. Do not try and show
    off by exceeding the capabilities of you or your machine. When stopping, leave
    the trail passable for other travelers by parking to one side whenever possible.

    Potty stops - normally its boys to the left, girls to the right. Radio for a
    break anytime you need one. It's not good to fool Mother Nature.

    4. MANNERS

    Don't litter! Carry out your drink cans, food wrappers, cigarette butts, broken
    parts . . . everything!

    Keep your dog on a leash. This rule is lax - UNLESS your dog becomes a nuisance.

    In light of extreme - sometimes insane - environmental pressure for land
    closures, it is particularly important not to be destructive when off-roading.
    Stay on the trails! Be friendly and courteous to any folks you meet. Suggest to
    others that they should do the same.

    When encountering horseback riders, pull over and stop your engine.

    Trail repairs and road crews - Many hands make the work easier, so if the Trail
    Spotter calls for a road crew, lend a hand.

    Unless otherwise posted, quiet time is from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.!

    -------------------------------------

    **** SAFETY RECOMMENDATION GUIDE ****

    ® = Required © = Recommendation © = High Recommendation
    > = Informational Purposes only


    First Aid kit
    ® Contain basic items and equipment (minimum including various bandages
    and gauze)
    ® All items enclosed in a specific container and securely positioned
    ® Waterproofed case, stationary & securely mounted, recommended

    Fire Extinguisher
    ® 5 lbs. total on-board capacity (1- 5 lbs. unit or 2- 2.5 lbs. units)
    © A combination of both a 5 lbs. and a 2.5 lbs. unit preferred
    ® 1A-10B-C minimum rated chemical type (at least one unit should contain
    this)
    ® Fully charged and un-used (as per gauge reading and nozzle sealed)
    ® Properly and securely mounted (NOT near high heat sources above 140
    degrees)
    © Vertical mounting position preferred (with the head towards the top)
    ® Easily removable from mount (not locked), and safety pin in place,
    secured and operable
    ® Mounted within drivers reach, while driver strapped into seat (at least
    one unit)
    ® TEST : Shake & listen for free movement of chemical inside
    © Metal valved head highly recommended

    C.B. Radio
    ® 40 Channel capacity and in good mechanical and physical condition (unit
    & mic cord)
    © Single Side Band (SSB) unit recommended (3 times the range & channels)
    ® C.B. securely mounted
    ® Antenna properly and securely mounted (in a location not easily damaged
    by adverse conditions)
    © NON-magnetic base mounted antenna recommended
    ® Antenna maximum length of not over 65" long from base to tip
    ® TEST : Clear audio reception (speaker) and transmission to another C.B.
    radio (microphone)
    ® TEST : Minimum 2 mile communication range under average conditions
    ® TEST : S.W.R. reading less than 1.7:1 on channel 21 (less than 1.3:1
    recommended)
    ® TEST : Power reading of no less than 2 watts on channel 21 (4 to 5 watts
    recommended)

    Tow Strap
    ® Flat type webbed tow strap... not merely a "lifting sling" (no ropes,
    chains or cables)
    ® Min. 4"/under 5,000 lbs. vehicle(mini/mid-sized) - Min. 6"/over 5,000
    lbs. vehicle (full-sized)
    ® Minimum 30' in length (from loop-end to loop-end) ...roll out strap &
    inspect
    ® Maximum loop-end surface width can not exceed 2.5" across width of very
    end of loop
    © 6" wide x 40' to 50' length, with 2" wide leather-lined loops recommended
    ® In good physical condition (no tears, frays or cuts)
    ® No permanently mounted metallic objects anywhere on the strap
    © Spare 20' to 30' long by 2" to 3" wide (for towing use on roadways)
    recommended

    Clevis Shackle
    ® Minimum of one (1) EXTRA accessible in vehicle (other than those used
    for vehicle hook-up)
    ® Straight in-line design (not offset, or "twisted" type)
    ® Minimum 3/4" pin/screw diameter
    ® Minimum 2.5" inside width (at widest point)
    ® Secure fitting retaining clip on pin-type clevis designs
    ® Screw-type clevis must be originally designed as such by original
    manufacturer, not modified
    ® In good operable and physical condition
    © Screw-type PULLING clevis recommended, not a "lifting type shackle"

    Tow Connection
    ® Hook, Receiver, Pintle Hitch or Clevis Mount located at the Front of
    vehicle
    ® Hook, Receiver, Pintle Hitch or Clevis Mount located at the Rear of vehicle
    ® All connection devices properly mounted and secure directly to frame
    (Front & Rear)
    ® All connection devices must have a minimum 10,000 lbs. load capacity
    ® If hooks or Pintle Hitch, must have at least 1.75" wide inside width
    (2" to 5" recommended)
    ® If hooks, must be mounted "in-line" with frame direction
    ® If receiver must have at least 2"x 2" receiver hole (class 3 and up),
    with hook or clevis mount
    > Ends of tube bumper can not be used to loop a pull strap over, for pulling
    ® Hooks mounted with a minimum of (2) 1/2" dia. bolts. All other min. of
    (4) 1/2" dia. bolts
    ® Minimum grade 5 bolts with nuts and washers (grade 8 recommended) No
    "allen" bolts allowed
    > Grade-5 bolt indicated on bolt head by 3 radial lines. Grade-8 by 5 to 6
    radial lines
    © Large metal "backing plate" recommended on back-side of frame mounting
    points
    ® All mounting holes must be same diameter as bolt being secured by, and
    no larger
    ® No welds to the frame unless accompanied by specified bolt (min. of 18"
    of weld on clevis mount)
    ® If hooks welded to frame, can only be welded along sides & rear of hook
    mounting surface (w/bolts)
    ® Inverted hook requires a retaining device so strap can’t fall off.
    Device must "spring back" by itself
    © Connection positioned as close to center of vehicle width as possible
    is recommended
    © Receiver (class-4) highly recommended, front and rear with a mount for
    a clevis

    Winch (not required)
    ® If winch is present, adequate size capacity for vehicle weight
    ® If winch is present, securely and properly mounted
    ® If winch is present, adequate capacity hook and secured to cable
    ® If winch is present, entire length of cable in good condition
    © Minimum of 8,000 lbs. pull capacity, with 9,000 to 12,000 lbs. pull
    recommended

    General Equipment
    ® All lug nuts must be securely fastened on all wheels. No missing wheel
    studs
    ® Sealed fuel system with filler cap, and no leaks. Tank mounted in a
    "protected" position, not in cab
    © Minimum 140 mile usable ‘highway’ fuel range recommended (230 mile range
    preferred)
    ® Functional seat belts in good condition for every occupant, bolted
    securely to the floor (w/washers)
    © Shoulder Harnesses highly recommended, mounted to floor(w/washers), not
    frame / roll bar
    ® Stationary steel top, or floor/frame mount roll bar over all occupants
    (Fiberglass bodied or vehicles with unsatisfactory floor mounting
    surface, require 20 sq.in. mounting pad surface area per leg, min. 1/8"
    thick metal. Bar must be held in place with no less than 4 grade-8 bolts
    per leg (and washers on each side)
    ® All suspension components properly designed, installed & maintained
    ® Tires in good condition (no major cuts or damage, severe weather
    cracking, etc.)
    ® Tires have safe tread depth remaining
    © Tire valve stems have caps installed and secured, sealing valve stem core
    ® Battery properly and securely bolted, mounted with positive post away
    from chassis or any ground
    ® TEST: Minimum of 2 external return springs for the throttle lever unit on
    the engine
    ® TEST: Drive vehicle 10mph & stop (forward & back) - All four(4) brakes
    must be good working order
    ® TEST : Working parking brake of any kind, capable of holding vehicle
    while apply light throttle
    © Parking brake actuated by other means than main hydraulic system highly
    recommended
    ® TEST : Working & audible horn (loud enough to be heard inside another
    running vehicle 50’ away)
    ® TEST : All steering components properly designed, installed & maintained
    ® TEST : Muffled exhaust system exiting properly from the vehicle (less
    than 85db measured from 5')
    © Neutral safety switch for automatic or clutch (manual trans) highly
    recommended
    © Spare Tire & Jack, Tools and spare Parts highly recommended have on hand
    at all times
    © Tailgate net NOT recommended. Steel tailgate in upright position highly
    encouraged

    Lights
    ® TEST : All Brake lamps operational
    ® TEST : All tail-lamps operational
    ® TEST : All headlamps operational (low beam and high beam)
    ® TEST : Backup lamps- actuated by gearshift lever movement
    (additional audible warning alarm optional)
    ® TEST : If additional manual back-up lamp switch present, in-cab "on"
    indicator light required
    ® TEST : License plate lamp(s) operational
    ® TEST : All signal lamps operational, front and rear
    ® TEST : All 4-way flashers operational front and rear
    © High beam indicator lamp in dash board operational (and dimmer switch)
    recommended

    Documentation
    ® Proof of current vehicle registration present in vehicle (as required
    by law)
    ® Valid license plates properly displayed and current (as required by law)
    ® Certification of current proof of insurance present in vehicle (as
    required by law)
    ® Valid drivers license of owner(s)/operator(s) (as required by law)
     
  5. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Thanks Andrea, Now thats a reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
     
  6. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    holy crap, thats exactly what you DONT want your club to be... meetings? fund raising? mission statements? dues? no no no no NO!!!

    to each their own I guess... but I wouldnt even think about joining such a club... but maybe thats just me.

    j
     
  7. TWISTEDJACK

    TWISTEDJACK 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Check this out. www.highdesertoff-road.com Try to keep things as simple as possible. This is a club that myself and a few good friends started. As you can tell we are still working out some growing pains. Good luck! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    The problem with a club that has no organization is that it can't do anything to help further the sport. When is the last time your club did a trail cleanup? Donated to a good cause? Paid your dues to your state's 4wd association or Tread Lightly? Organized an event for which you got sponsors? NCBD is organized, but we try to do without as much BS as possible, it's just the minumum required amount of BS necessary so we can do as much as we can to help make sure that this sport exists for our kids to enjoy in the future.
     
  9. Polaris

    Polaris 1/2 ton status

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    Some things to consider are strength in numbers, fund raising makes a good image for wheelers in the public eye, and can help pay insurance premiums for things like mud drags or other events. When it comes to trails and keeping them open, a state group of several hundred or thousand will have a MUCH stronger voice than an unincorporated/unofficial club of a few.
     
  10. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    actually OBH does trail clean up and trail maintenence junk all the time. Personally, Im not looking to "further the sport" really... and I don't forsee myself sending $ to some far off 4x4 association or tread lightly either. When Im on the trail i ALWAYS stick to the trail and I ALWAYS pack out what I came in with so in practice i tread lightly.

    everyone wants to do different things... if you want to further the sport, charge on, further the sport. I just wanna wheel with a good group of people and not worry about dues, or meetings or any of that other bullcrap... hell, I dont even like "events", sponsors or not... they always have lame schedules, bs sessions and other non-essential poop.... i just wanna get there, air down, and drive. I didnt build my truck to meet people... or to further some cause... or anything else. I built it and work on it so I can drive it offroad, thats what its there for and thats what I like to do. Like I said, if other people have their rigs for other reasons, thats 100% ok too. To each their own.

    j
     
  11. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    Well have fun wheeling when there's nowhere left to wheel. You seem to have a pretty narrow view of things, but that's OK. You can just leave it to other people to make sure that land stays open for you to wheel on.
     
  12. kennyw

    kennyw N9PHW Premium Member

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    There is a little more to OBH than that.

    Oregon Bushhackers

    Many people involved in advancing the oportunities of 4 wheeling. Most 4x4 related newsletters are posted on the list each month (as well as those put out by the environazies). Good tech discussions across all makes/models of 4x4's and automotive in general.
     
  13. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You seem to have a pretty narrow view of things, but that's OK. You can just leave it to other people to make sure that land stays open for you to wheel on.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    sigh. Great, now I have the enviro-wackos AND people who like 4x4s telling me what I should/shouldn't do. Personally, I make it a habit not to tell others how they should live their lives... but like I said before, to each their own.

    j
     
  14. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    I made it a point to NOT tell you what to do with your life. You quoted me yourself, I said to leave it to other people.
     
  15. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    There is a little more to OBH than that.

    Oregon Bushhackers

    Many people involved in advancing the oportunities of 4 wheeling. Most 4x4 related newsletters are posted on the list each month (as well as those put out by the environazies). Good tech discussions across all makes/models of 4x4's and automotive in general.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Looks like a good club-type group to me. Honestly, NCD isn't a whole lot eyond that, there are some clubs that really micromanage everything. I'm not condoning that at all, kind of takes the fun out of the whole thing. Maybe it's different in CA, but the 4x4 community is constantly under attack from the enviro-wackos, and the only people that fight them are the groups that people and clubs pay dues to, like Blue Ribbon and CA4WD. They use the dues to fight the enviro-nuts in court, among other things. In the past 6 years I've seen Pismo Beach shrink by 30%, and that's on top of the 70% that it has already shrunk in the past 20 years, all due to lawsuits brought by eco-groups. It would be much worse if nobody helped to finance the 4x4 groups through paying dues.
     
  16. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Thanks for all the input!!
     
  17. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Dade City, Florida
    Dont start a club! It sucks all the fun out of wheeling. I am the Vice prez of the club Im in and it has been a disaster. It wasnt bad when I was just a member but being an officer sucks. My buddy who is the Prez is gonna be resigning after 2 yrs which sticks me w/ the prez target on my back. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif

    If you do start a club, keep it fun. Screw the politics of it, just have fun. When the politics start the fun stops. Make a name, get stickers made, but DONT worry about the club having money or anything like that. It just kills it.

    IMHO Id rather just be out riding w/ my friends and having fun instead of having to make 100 people happy on the trail. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
     
  18. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Vancouver, WA, USA
    finally, some1 who agrees with the jek-ster. we oughta go wheelin sometime PI. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    j
     
  19. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Sounds like fun, theres a LOT of trails between Fla and Canada. Wanna meet in the middle? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif That would make for a fun road trip...only take roads if there is no trail to take and go from state to state.

    Well its like this, the next club meeting is on Monday, well either have alot of members quit, they will wake the hell up and pluck their heads out of their asses, or we (Prez, talked him out of quitting, and myself,VP) will be assasinated. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif

    To quote a friend of mine..."they can kill me but they cant eat me." /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  20. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    lol!! Im not canadian! thats vancouver WASHINGTON! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif would be kick azz to wheel across the country though. gas alone would be $pendy as hell, but that'd be the coolest wheelin trek ever. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    j
     

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