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The ( NEW ) 9" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Z3PR, Jan 4, 2003.

  1. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Okay, I'm starting this so y'all can say whatever ya want. I will ask you desert raceing people this: How much difference does the wieght of 14 Bolt FF make ???? I'm not trying to bash anyone, just asking for the hellofit.
     
  2. florida4x4

    florida4x4 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Here is my .02 (and prolly worth just .02 /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif). If your talking about desert racing then light weight rules. That might mean you take a nodular nine inch chunk put a detroit and gears of choice in it, build a "worthy" full floating housing (GN stock car housing?) and go. Properly built the nine is hard to beat (break). The 14 bolt is too large, heavy and the axle tubes flex too much.

    However if you are building a toy and want to go with 36" or larger tires the 14 bolt GM is a value beyond. If your plans include a detroit just be sure to get one with an open carrier so you can drop it in (ask me how I know that /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif).
     
  3. chulisohombre

    chulisohombre 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    personnally wont a heavier axle offset the weight of the engine and make a desert cruiser land better off of jumps?i know strength is not so much of a problem with one.the 9 inch would probably be the strongest lightweight axle to throw under the truck and the housing is pretty strong also.going off of jumps i would definitely want a full floater kit of some sort because the abuse of jumping a rig will eventually break something and at those speeds i would not want to be 3 wheeling at all.
     
  4. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    The biggest issue is weight. A 14-bolt full floater tips the scale at around 525 lbs. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif The other axles in your list are closer to 250 lbs. Swapping to rear disc brakes will lighten the 14 bolt, but it will still be VERY heavy as compared to the others.

    One HUGE difference between a rock crawler and desert runner is that the desert runner has to control unsprung weight. Running across a series of whoops, the tire/wheel/axle combo is going to start bouncing up and down at a high rate of speed. The heavier the combo is, the more difficult it is to control. Lighter is better for this kind of driving.
     
  5. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    I was flipping through JP magazine /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif at the drug store last night and ran across a pic of a diff built to be as light as possible. Fluted tubes, gun drilled axles among other things got it in under 200 lbs...it was a rear D60 and used the Rock 60 housing that had been strategically fluted as well.

    It was the perfect example of the lengths and expense that some will go to lose unsprung weight while still having a strong diff. It looked pretty cool too.../forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Rene
     
  6. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    The more weight, the more stress on parts. That is why you will see very few 4wd vehicles, more parts and more weight adds to more chit to break.

    Now in my very short foray into studying desert racing, the only axle you mentioned I haven't seen sitting under a race truck is the 12 bolt. Yes, there is a race truck, a K5 to be exact with 10 bolts front and back. Yes, they have all the goodies in them, but as far as I was able to ascertain, he never had a problem with them running in 4wd at 100mph at times behind a hi-po TBI 454. The only truck I've seen with a 14 broke during a race.

    A 9 inch can also be trussed up a lot easier than those other rearends, and that lends itself to the overall strength and survivability.
     
  7. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    I havent looked at desert stuff for a very long time,
    but didnt one of Robbie Gordon's beasts tip the scales at 10000#
    the Herbst truggies didnt look too light either.
    As light as possible I imagine but also engineered to be bridge truss strong.

    now I do not see how you all compare a Ford 9" that never was to an out of the wreckers axle.
    apples to oranges.

    THanks Rene for pointing that out
     
  8. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Rene, I got my newest Petersens 4WOR today and it has an article about this axle you described.
    Dyna-Trac is the one who makes it. They are using the Pro Rock 60 housing and machining it to reduce weight. Also like you said, machine fins on the tubes to reduce more weight.

    Check it out on page 30 in the Feb. '03 issue.

    They stated that they were able to knock off 97 lbs. from their standard D60 rear, but of the semi-floater design.
     
  9. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    I havent looked at desert stuff for a very long time,
    but didnt one of Robbie Gordon's beasts tip the scales at 10000#
    the Herbst truggies didnt look too light either.
    As light as possible I imagine but also engineered to be bridge truss strong.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I couldn't tell you about Robbie's trucks except he knows how to drive them above and beyond their limits. The only weight I know right now is of that yellow Class 8 that I posted in the other thread, it came in at 5500 lbs. It can carry two spares, has 60 gallons I believe of total fuel capacity, a big block Ford. The front and rear is fiberglass and of course the cockpit is almost bare. Even the dash would surprise you, it's not one of those mongo types with the console in the middle that people usually have, it's just a bare aluminum dash and the shifter has it's own separate console. Now I imagine where all the weight comes from is the suspension. It was built by Curt LeDuc and he's got a reputation of building stuff that there will be no worry of something breaking and as far as I know, they've never had a problem outside of brake lines breaking and tires.
     
  10. Sandman

    Sandman 3/4 ton status Author

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Well, It sounds to me that if you have the cash to throw, the 9 inch or the light 60 is the way to go. If you dont have the cash, Then the 14 bolt with rear disks is a good compromise. I put my rig on a diet this last year and was able to get ride off about 700 pounds. I did notice a difference just in just general wheeling around. I noticed enough that I am considering fiberglass body panels now.
     
  11. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    I just remembered something from the other thread,
    several folks were saying they wanted a higher pinion placement in the 9,
    Strange casts a 12 bolt carrier for that application, fits a 9" housing
     
  12. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    They used to have much better pic of the 12-bolt drop-out online, but this will have to do:
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Michael

    Michael 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Most of the "sho nuff" big boys in offroad racing are using the Chrisman 10" like this:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    There are no 10,000 lb cars out there, except for maybe some of the Hummers. The Herbst 4WD Ford is a whopping 6200 lbs. Most all the regular guys are running tricked out 9". There is a somewhat different mentality that the racers blasting across the dez at 100 + mph have.......spend the $$$ so you don't die when something breaks. Crawling is a whole 'nother thing....like mj keeps sayin'. Different tools for different jobs.....
    Obviously a 9" can be built VERY strong for enuff $$$, but if ya just want a strong, cheap axle where weight is not a major problem the obvious choice would be.....oh yall get it by now.
     
  14. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    good pics,
    no cooler lines?
    under construction and not there, or using the bigger ring gear preclude them?
     
  15. Michael

    Michael 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    This is the only one with cooler lines that I have seen in recent years.....yikes! It's the new Avalanche Trophy truck from Fly-N-Hi in Az.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. BARRAZA

    BARRAZA 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    Different weapons for different fights /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    It would appear that the 9in ring and pinion are more than adequate if all these race trucks are using them, but does a desert race truck even carry low range gears in the transfer case? I think the real reasons for not using a 14ff is that the GEAR strength is not required, so why carry the weight? A 9in gearset is the only suitably strong rear with lots of aftermarket support that lends itself to custom housing fab because of the drop out center section, and those race trucks appear to be all about housing strength. Not any desert racing where I'm from /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif so I don't know for sure, but I would think that many offroad situations could stress the gears more than a truck screaming across the desert, like low range(or doubler low), low gear high torque climbing. Apples and oranges.
     
  17. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    but does a desert race truck even carry low range gears in the transfer case?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Most trucks don't carry transfer cases. The Herbst truck that Michael mentioned is a full-time unit, that thing is a custom unit. Less parts=less weight=less breakage.

    I've seen very little about race preference when it comes to engaging 4wd. One racer ran his K5 in 4Hi all the time, another would only shift into 4Hi when he needed it.
     
  18. ntsqd

    ntsqd 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    The pic of the Chrisman 10" looks like it uses the 10.25" Sterling drop-out. Don't know too much about it except that it's supposedly a bigger cousin to the 9", but somewhat of an orphan for trick parts availability. Sounds like maybe Chrisman cured that last part.

    Not to hijack this thread too badly, but anyone else notice that there are two brake hard lines going to each caliper in the Fly-N-Hi picture ? I can only speculate they're using brake recirculators. Wonder why ? Winston Cup cars and large HP Trans-Am cars are the only vehicles I know of that can really take advantage of this.
    The cooler lines in that application look like a failure mode to me. Any idea how well the truck works ?
     
  19. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    MJ,
    Didn't you have a article in your webshots on turning a 9" to a FF using D44 parts?
    I can't seam to find it any more.
     
  20. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: The ( NEW ) 9\" vers 14 Bolt FF vers 10 & 12 bolt thread

    I think it is gone now, sorry. I dont see it on my HDD either
    when Webshots first started limiting me I killed a few albums to make room for new stuff.
    Now I am over every limit they set so the albums are static until they delete them.
     

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