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The Ultimate Diesel K5 -- Hybrid Electric

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by 6.2LTrailblazer84, Jul 30, 2005.

  1. 6.2LTrailblazer84

    6.2LTrailblazer84 1/2 ton status

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    Sorry if this has already been discussed at length here.. I did a search but couldn't find anything..

    This would be the best of both worlds to me.. with an Electric system not only would you have great gas like vehicle performance AND diesel efficiency (at least) but could also probably do some crazy things while 4 wheeling like rotate your vehicle 360 degrees on a dime with the electric motor driven wheels..

    Also.. your neighbors would love you after this hybrid electric conversion.. no more fast idle wake ups :D

    I'm going to try to do some research and see how much a conversion like this would cost for the basic parts..



    http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html


    Hybrid Humvee Brings Stealth To The Battlefield
    By Bill Moore
    Editor in chief EV World:This Week


    OMAHA, Nebraska -- 5 January, 1998. Representatives of the news media assembled on the grounds of Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida for a demonstration of a new hybrid-electric HMMWV (Humvee). In a steady drizzle, a standard diesel-powered "Hummer" rumbled into view and slowly approached the damp, but curious group of reporters. It quickly became apparent that something was amiss, this wasn't the vehicle the press had come to see. Instead, with their attention momentarily diverted, the real hybrid-electric Hummer silently crept up from behind to within inches of the crowd before the announcer asked the assembly to turn around to view what some are calling the Army's new "Corvette in Camouflage."

    You couldn't have asked for a more effective demonstration of the stealth capabilities of this one-of-a-kind prototype military vehicle. The result of a joint engineering effort by a consortium including the US Army's Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command (TAC), DARPA, the Southern Coalition for Advanced Transportation, Unique Mobility, PEI Electronics and others, the hybrid-electric HMMWV cost less than $2 million dollars in development costs, according to Daniel Tudor, senior program manager for PEI Electronics of Huntsville, Alabama.

    While the Hybrid-Hummer looks like the standard Humvee on the exterior, complete with olive-drab and flat black camouflage, underneath its workaday fatigues is a remarkable power plant capable to surprising acceleration and speeds up to 80 miles per hour, a good 10 miles faster than the standard issue HMMWV. Its zero-to-fifty mph time is seven seconds, twice as fast as the stock model. It can climb a 60% grade at 17 mph, two and half times faster than stock. In addition, the vehicle gets twice the fuel economy at 18 mpg enabling it to carry a smaller fuel tank, while retaining the same 300 miles range. The vehicle can also ford streams up to a depth of five feet without swamping or stalling.

    The only trade-off of the current prototype design is a 540 pound loss of payload, presumably taken by the heavy lead/acid batteries. The hybrid version has a rated payload of 1700 pounds, while the stock version is 2,240 pounds. The GVW for both vehicles is identical at 9,100 pounds.

    The heart of this new generation military vehicle is its hybrid-electric propulsion system consisting of four 55kW brushless DC electric motors (peaked rated to 75kW), one for each wheel and a 1.9 liter turbo-charged diesel engine-generator set capable of turning out 55kW of electric power. The diesel-generator can provide power either to the drive train or to the vehicle's 288 VDC advanced lead/acid battery pack. Rated at 350 hp in hybrid mode, the combination gives the Hybrid-Hummer its sports car like performance, as well as its stealth capabilities which is activated by throwing a switch on the console between the two front seats. Going stealth turns off the turbo-diesel and draws power from the 85 amp hour battery pack giving the Humvee a 20 mile range in silent mode (40 miles using NiMH batteries). This virtually eliminates the vehicle's infrared signature, making it nearly invisible to enemy night vision devices. Large cutaway drawing.

    Even with its turbo-diesel/generator running, the Hybrid-Hummer is amazingly quiet, both inside and out. EV World's editor in chief was able to video tape inside the vehicle during its last demonstration drive at the 14th Electric Vehicle Symposium and easily carried on a conversation with the driver. Click on the photo to the right for a RealVideo playback of that ride. Stealth mode is positively spooky! But for the crunch of the tires on the pavement, you can't hear this trooper coming. The noise you hear on the video is from an auxiliary generator powering lights at nearby exhibit tents.

    Another advantage of individual electric drive to each wheel is the Humvee can be made to turn like a tank, locking or reversing the wheels inside the turn, giving the vehicle an unmatched turning radius. The system also lends itself readily to robotic adaptation, letting the vehicle tackle missions too dangerous for manned operations, such as traversing a mine field.

    The Army is also working on other hybrid-electrical military vehicles including the M113 and the Bradley fighting vehicle as part of a $43 million development effort funded by DARPA. In addition to improved performance on the battlefield, hybrid-electrics can provide temporary electric power during natural disasters, such as emergency power to a hospital or crisis command center.

    A hint of where the Army sees this technology going came from a TAC representative who indicated that the Army was working on an all-electric replacement for the M1-A Abrams battle tank complete with an electric canon.

    Clearly, the battlefield of the future will not only find stealthy aircraft in the skies and stealthy ships at sea, but an equally silent and nearly invisible army on land.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2005
  2. danny7139

    danny7139 1/2 ton status

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    Would be a very cool project but I think would cost alot of $ :D
     
  3. 6.2LTrailblazer84

    6.2LTrailblazer84 1/2 ton status

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    I think it costs about $3,000 for each wheel motor alone..

    I wonder if you could get somekind of sponsorship for a project like this.. maybe even from an environmental organization.

    Maybe if you used it in somekind of competition.. like some offroad competition..?

    Imagine combining this system AND propane injection.. :D
     
  4. danny7139

    danny7139 1/2 ton status

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    Imagine a environmental efficient blazer :haha:

    Maybe for a rock crawling setup you could get some sponsorship. ;)
     
  5. Zeitler

    Zeitler Registered Member

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    hm at first i thought you ment like those locomotives : a diesel engine powers a generator that powers an electric motor..
     
  6. big_truxx

    big_truxx 1/2 ton status

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    yup that project will cost a lot of dough. but it is cool :waytogo:
     
  7. Seventy4Blazer

    Seventy4Blazer 3/4 ton status

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    talk about weight... we b!tch when we weigh in around 7k... that would be about 10 or more to do that. breakage on the trail would be very consistant....

    Grant
     
  8. 6.2LTrailblazer84

    6.2LTrailblazer84 1/2 ton status

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    As for breakage.. you would probably have to beef up your components.. but you also wouldn't have to have such a big range for electric from the 20 mile range they have.. you could probably decrease the size of the battery reserve by a lot.

    Also.. the vehicle they use only has a 1.9 litre diesel engine.. combined with the 4 high power electric motors..

    Since my diesel has a 6.2 litre engine... maybe that would reduce the size of the electric motors you would need to get the same kind of performance? You might lose some all electric performance.. but that might be ok...

    They say the hybrid is an additional 540 lbs.. if you reduce the range of the lead acid batteries to a quarter.. to a 5 mile range...then you would bring the weight down to around 150 extra pounds or so..

    I might be totally wrong though.. that's just what I was hoping..
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2005
  9. DieselDan

    DieselDan 1/2 ton status

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    The Army is the biggest sucker when it comes to crap like this!

    First and formost, a "frontline" vehicle is not the place to be testing PC, enviro friendly, untested equipment like this. Leave the hybrid stuff to the civilian world that knows how to correctly maintain a vehicle and can work the bugs out over the long haul. I know my ass doesn't want to be sitting on a dozen batteries when bullets fly and/or my truck overturns.

    Second: The Army is not equipped to handle and maintain equipment it has in it's inventory right now. The new Stryker must have the engine (pack) pulled and sent back the manufacturer (warranty) or Depot for ANY repair. The new line of Generators replaced all gauges with a a LCD screen. Most units don't have the equipment or the training to deal with on-board electronics (like DDEC) that are in newer trucks. Civilian employees (TACOM/CECOM) & contractors (Raytheon) permiate the battlefield to keep the whole mess from falling apart.

    Lastly: This equipment is bought buy the Logistics branch that doesn't know crap about the stuff it procures. They believe ANYTHING the contractor tells them. On top of that, the DOD is "in-bed" with the contractors it does business with (where do you think Colonels work work after retirement). I could walk you through our motor pool and discuss each and every truck and tool; good and bad. The bottom line is there's too much GEE-WHIZ technology, and not enough basic common sense. :angry1:


    A Quote for LOGISTICIAN magazine 2003 "The new line of equipment with replacable modules (referring to OBD) make the job of the repairman easier." :doah:
     
  10. PhoenixZorn

    PhoenixZorn 1/2 ton status

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    DieselDan, I'm gonna jump out there and say that the Army didn't develop the new Humvee with polution control on their mind... or if it was on their minds, it was near the back, and an added bonus to the stealthiness and performance gains made by the smaller diesel and electric motors. Hell, without the batteries in this vehicle, if you have a 30 gallon tank with a 1.9L diesel powering 4 electric motors, you'd have a 400-500 mile tank range. The batteries are there for stealth mode, and as already mentioned, only good for about 20 miles... You take out the batteries, you lose 540lbs. You put this in a Blazer, and you have the world's most efficient full size truck on the road.
     
  11. DieselDan

    DieselDan 1/2 ton status

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    No, (thank god) emissions wasn't a design factor for the HMMWV. The DOD has an emission exemption for all tactical equipment. That being said, it has now become a design parameter for some of the later model heavy equipment/trucks. IMHO environmental stewardship and an effective (winning) fighting force do not go hand in hand.

    My point was that alot of equipment that the Army spends millions on to develope and procure does not perform "as advertised".

    Case in point: CTIS (CENTRAL TIRE INFLATION) I would eargerly wager that well over half (probably much more) of the M939 series five ton trucks in Iraq are operating with the CTIS disconnected and/or inop. Why? Because the sytem is a maintenance nightmare. I had one of my best mechanics spend over a week trying to repair one particular Tractor with CTIS issues.

    I have a theory: The army didn't buy CTIS for increased mobility. After all, the M939 series has anopen differentials in all three axles! I believe that the manufacturer told the logistic weenies that "this system will check the tire pressure five times a minute." "It will save you millions on tire wear!" The log weenies bought it. :doah:

    Anyway before I step down off my soap box. I really don't think the Army needs a "stealth mode" HMMWV or additional range. Everything is designed around a 300 mile range (including road & tactical driving). It makes little sense to have a HMMWV that can go further that the rest of the vehicles it travels with. Same theory for off road driving. Save the stealth crap for maybe a FAV (Fast Attack Vehicle or chenworth dune buggy to you & me). We need a HMMWV with straight axles, maybe a coil/air spring combo, and stronger (yet simple) engine/transmission to handle the thousand plus pounds of armor we're hanging on everything that rolls. :grin: :usaflag:
     
  12. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    in-the-wheel motors are pretty kick ass. I'm still trying to figure out why a sponsored rock crawling team isn't trying to use them. They put out mad torq, and eliminate the need for brakes, axles, driveshafts, tcases, transmissions and engines. The battery packs for rigs that would be DD viable are huge and heavy... but crawlers only have to go like 100 feet (including some wheel spin) so I'd think that MUCH smaller battery packs would work. Considering how much the hard-parts in a buggy weigh, it seems like you could build a buggy that was half the weight with these nifty in wheel motors... and it'd all be way down low too.

    j
     
  13. ryan22re

    ryan22re 1/2 ton status

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    gm already sells a partial hybrid truck. they have an electric motor sandwiched between the engine and torque converter.

    since it bolts to a gen IV small block, it should bolt to your 6.2. should be some in a junk yard by now.

    no idea how to wire it though

    ryan
     
  14. ryan22re

    ryan22re 1/2 ton status

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    heres what it looks like

    ryan
     
  15. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    This concept is the most promising- remove tranny, bolt in new tranny. Tranny is both a generator and a motor. The only problem would be the electronics- how to control how much fuel to give the system, and how much to charge up. As far as I know, you need some kinda logic system to let the system know when you are mashing the skinny pedal. The reason hybrids are efficient is that the motors are generally built to specific outputs, specifically, running at maximum efficiency, mated to a generator which produces its max output at the same speed.

    If the 6.2's put out its most efficient RPM at 1800, you want to put in a generator behind it able to use its 1800RPM speed and approximately 80% of its torque output (225-250ft/lb) My 80% is a guestimate, Im sure someone will give the proper percentage to use.
     
  16. ryan22re

    ryan22re 1/2 ton status

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    from the general himself:

    Instead of a conventional starter motor and generator, the PHT uses a compact 14-kW electric induction motor or starter generator integrated in a patented, space-efficient manner between the engine and transmission. The starter generator provides fast, quiet starting power and allows automatic engine stops and starts to conserve fuel. It also smooths out any driveline surges, generates electrical current to charge the batteries, runs auxiliary power outlets, and provides coast-down regenerative braking as an aid to fuel economy. The starter generator includes a rotor and stationary stator, housed inside the transmission bell housing. The stator is attached to the engine block and incorporates high efficiency/smaller package size coils formed by laser welding copper bars together instead of winding with copper wire. The rotor bolts directly to the engine crankshaft and spins inside the stator. Current flowing through the stator's electric windings generates magnetic forces in the rotor, which causes the rotor to turn, starting the engine. The starter generator is in series with the engine, connected directly to it, so that anytime the engine is turning, the Starter Generator is turning and vice versa. An auxiliary transmission oil pump helps enable the automatic start feature by assuring sufficient line pressure to allow torque transfer immediately upon driver command, when the engine is started.

    (PHT= PARTIAL HYBRID TRUCK)

    ryan
     
  17. 6.2LTrailblazer84

    6.2LTrailblazer84 1/2 ton status

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    n-the-wheel motors are pretty kick ass. I'm still trying to figure out why a sponsored rock crawling team isn't trying to use them. They put out mad torq, and eliminate the need for brakes, axles, driveshafts, tcases, transmissions and engines. The battery packs for rigs that would be DD viable are huge and heavy... but crawlers only have to go like 100 feet (including some wheel spin) so I'd think that MUCH smaller battery packs would work. Considering how much the hard-parts in a buggy weigh, it seems like you could build a buggy that was half the weight with these nifty in wheel motors... and it'd all be way down low too.

    I agree. This would be awsome. I wonder if it would work too well? Maybe it would take the challenge out of it? Idon't know. Maybe they just don't like the thought of a silent rock crawler. I think it would be awsome.

    You bring up a point I was thinking about...

    The ideal set up might be to take a rear wheel drive only diesel Blazer and then put wheel motors on all 4 wheels.

    This way you wouldn't have the added weight of a normal 4 wheel drive system.. and then when you needed 4 wheel drive the front electric motors would kick in on the fly. But you would have the standard rear wheel drivetrain for normal diesel driving.
     
  18. ntsqd

    ntsqd 1/2 ton status

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    Might be OK for a crawler buggy, but the last I was involved with EV's and HEV's efficient hub motors were wishfull thinking. In addition to the weight of the motor there is also usually the weight of some sort of gear redux box required. All of that is unsprung weight. Which is why it might work well in a crawler app., but isn't going to be the best ride for going any distance.

    The latest in batteries are D cells, hundreds of them. A friend has one of those Honda Insites. HAs something like 250-300 D cells for it's battery pack. Think about that, how easy packaging them would be since they're so small.

    14kW is 18.8 HP I'd guess not quite enough to maintain 60 mph since most late cars are considered (roughly) to need 20-30 HP for steady state cruise @ 60mph.

    Here's 5kW in a "briefcase" sized package.
     
  19. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    Big problem with this whole thing, it requires a lot of electronics to balance out the system. If you throttle the diesel, there has to be some sorta wheel speed sensor to tell the front motors to put out a certain amount of power for catchup. It is significantly easier to keep the traditional drive line, just swap in an electric tranny generator, and bolt it up to the tcase. In either case, the good stuff is in this hybrid tranny. It works like a traditional tranny, just takes the extra power thats there to charge up batteries. Then it has some sorta torque converter disconnect from the engine, and allows the generator to reverse and become a motor, powering the drive line. Problem that I recall is that the generator size has to be pretty large to put out reasonable output. Hence the CAT dump trucks and locomotives, they are all phenominally large to begin with.

    The hondas are very cool though-the gm implementation is a step in the right direction, but hardly a large step.

     
  20. 6.2LTrailblazer84

    6.2LTrailblazer84 1/2 ton status

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    Then it has some sorta torque converter disconnect from the engine, and allows the generator to reverse and become a motor, powering the drive line.

    The problem here though.. is if you use one electric motor like this you lose the ability to put power on different wheels at different times in different directions, right? You lose the tank driving ability.

    What if you combined the wheel motors with this suspension system...

    http://qualitysound.bose.com/pg/learning/project_sound/suspension_components.jsp
     

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