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Timing by ear / weird bad starting noises: **Edit** See end

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by dremu, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    So I'm playing with the bigblock today (see http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163695 ) and am re-timing it by ear as opposed to the light and mark, which I suspect is wrong.

    If I retard the thing much, and intermittently at *near* the mark, starting becomes ... odd. It will turn once, maybe, and then almost seize in place, before tremendous effort on the part of the starter will turn the old girl over.

    If I whang the gas pedal a coupla times before starting, this behavior isn't as bad. It's almost like, I donno, somebody confused the intake and exhaust TDC's, or something? Maybe I should rotate the spark plug wires four positions around? :haha:

    Anyway, if I advance her some this seems to go away, so maybe she's just waaaay retarded ... like the :mad: :shame: who worked on her before... but I thought I'd throw this out there, see if anyone says "Ooh, you should " whatever. Like checking to make sure that the dumpkopf who did the HEI conversion actually did it right :doah:

    -- A
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  2. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

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    Turn her to where it doesn't struggle , get her fired , then use the light and see how close it is .

    Thats how they sound when they are retarded .
     
  3. theperfectgarage

    theperfectgarage 1/2 ton status

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    The symptoms indicate too advanced, yet you state you advance it a bit and it cranks easier. Hmmmm.... which way did you turn your dist. to " advance " it ?
     
  4. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Well, this is of course the million dollar question.

    The Chilton's I have clearly states the rotor turns clockwise as looking at the top of it.

    It also clearly states that one retards by turning in that direction, i.e. clockwise, and advances by turning anti-clockwise. (Err, for you Americans, "counterclockwise" :) )

    Yet when I turn the dizzy clockwise, i.e. the passenger side where I can get at it back into the firewall , the timing mark moves DOWN (i.e. clockwise) the timing indicator by the balancer (flywheel?), and that's where the indicator says on it AFTER. Seems to me like I'm advancing the timing by turning the dizzy this way.

    Correspondingly, when I turn the dizzy anticlockwise, i.e. pull the passenger side AWAY from the firewall, the timing mark moves UP (anticlockwise) the indicator, where it says BEFORE.

    Duh?

    I'm gonna wait for the thing to cool off, then get the mark onto TDC and verify that the #1 wire is actually pointed there ... maybe the wires are one plug off, i.e. 45 degrees wrong? Doesn't seem like it'd run therem though ... any other ideas? Ignition module? Note that the dizzy has been run on 9.5V for a few years, anyway, becuz the last idiot left the resistor wire in :doah: ... would that have fried anything? (Seems to me like OVER voltage would be more likely to fry electronics, but ...)

    --
     
  5. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't know about what the Chiltons says . All I know is if turn the dizzy to the passenger side too far , she pings while driving . If I turn the dizzy to the drivers side , shes hard to start .

    Which makes sense to me , the rotor is going to clockwise , move the dizzy clockwise , the rotor is going to hit the contact later , rotate dizzy counterclockwise , the rotor hits the contact sooner .

    Before is retarded , after is advanced .

    BTW , my 283 in the trail rig I rotated the engine to the marks with the valve cover off . Dizzy in on the gears , so it will rotate with the engine on a slight bump , slip right into the oil pump driveshaft . Then I can adjust it after starting her :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  6. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    No, this is correct. Why not just do it properly. Set up TDC on 1 and check the mark on the balancer. If it's in the right place, strobe it up to the correct BTDC degree for you rmotor and that's that. If the mark on the balancer is in the wrong place (outer ring has spun or wrong balancer) Just paint a new mark and strobe it up.
     
  7. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Sounds easy ... just spent waaaay too much time trying to set up to TDC. Can't get a socket inside the balancer, got one spark plug wire off to pull the plugs and tore the end off :mad: so I am loathe to tear the rest up ... grrrrrr.

    Don't see anywhere to put my chain-Vise-grip ... at least the weather's nice :crazy:

    -- A
     
  8. theperfectgarage

    theperfectgarage 1/2 ton status

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    You have the advance/retard rotation correct but as southern speed sez, find tdc and do it right.
     
  9. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Okay. More info, more puzzles. :(

    If I move the balancer to align the timing mark, the rotor points waaaay not to where #1 was. So I blithely rotated all the wires around two steps, so that #1 is where the rotor points.

    She now won't catch, backfires, and spits gas up through the carb like a mad woman. I have all the dogs in the neighbourhood barking at the amazing noises coming from that truck :haha:

    I am going to assume that the balancer mark is all wrong.

    I checked that #1 was fairly short when the mark lined up by sticking a pencil in it. With just the one of me, it's hard to spin the engine and check for the exhaust cycle on #1.

    Are there any other method of finding TDC, when the timing mark is suspect? Or am I 180 degrees out or something?

    -- A
     
  10. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    definitely 180 out or similar..

    pull the #1 plug or check the rockers on #1.. pull the plug, turn over till ya feel compression, when mark gets to ponter thats tdc... same with rockers, turn till intake valve closes, next time on the mark is tdc (iboth valves will be closed)

    you can also check piston height at this point thru the plug hole, coat hanger or similar works well for that.. you know your on the compression stroke at this point..

    and remember plug wires can start anywhere as long as your tdc, start at that rotor point....
     
  11. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    So if I have a buddy stick his thumb over the plug hole (oh that sounds bad!) while I turn the thing ... when there is pressure in the cylinder, that's the compression stroke.

    What if the balancer mark is flubbed? Do I use a coat hanger or something and pick the top-most point (i.e. shortest length in the cylinder) and call that TDC?

    Yeah ... looks like the PO wanted to start them ANYWHERE is right :D

    BTW, thanks all ... this, right here, is why I'm a paid member. More tech savvy quicker than a pro mechanic could give it to me!

    -- A
     
  12. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    yeah, either of those methods will have ya on the compression stroke.. after ya start to feel the compression you can watch the mark come up on the balancer and check the piston in the cylinder at the same time..

    i have a boroscope at work so i can look right into a cylinder but if ya get your head down in there with a hanger, thin screwdriver, etc you can feel the piston coming up...

    just watch out when cranking it with the switch.. its moving fast, so as soon as you feel compression, stop, and manually or bump it up from that point...
     
  13. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Oh yeah ... like my head will fit down there!

    And yeah, I'm rotating the damn thing by hand, rather than bumping the starter.

    Thanks again!

    -- A
     
  14. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    hehe, no prob... :wink1:

    and for future times like this, you may wanna pick up or build a remote start switch.. invaluable for stuff like this, compression tests, etc...

    pretty cheap or a couple 8ga wires, couple aligator clips for the ends and a high amp, momentary switch, easy enough...

    any probs give us a holla.... :wink1:
     
  15. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    :woot: Oh you mean THAT top dead center ... :doah:

    Yup, had her 180 degrees out. Just fired her up briefly (no alternator belt, fan or shroud :eek: ) but damn she sounds good. 'Bout friggin time!

    I'll post up when I'm finished... no video a la BranndonC, but at least to letch'all know how I did.

    -- A
     
  16. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    good deal.... :waytogo:
     
  17. theperfectgarage

    theperfectgarage 1/2 ton status

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    Well done

    Knew ya could git 'er :laugh: . Feels good don't it.:woot:
     
  18. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Yeah it do ... she does run well, finally. Now for the next what-crazy-sh!t-did-the-PO-do post...

    Thanks again, all.

    -- A
     
  19. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Cool. Don't you just love POs!!!
     
  20. theperfectgarage

    theperfectgarage 1/2 ton status

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    Take the grrrr out of it.

    feb9thisone.jpg Here's two of my favorite and cheapest tools, they really help out. The remote starter, built just as vert dog mentioned, cost maybe $10 to make. And my personal favorite plug wire puller of all time. Paid $1.98 for it off a Matco truck. I never ( knock on wood ) kill wires with it.

    feb9thisone.jpg
     

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