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Timing problems... need some serious help

Discussion in 'Pacific Region' started by shewheeler, Dec 3, 2002.

  1. shewheeler

    shewheeler 1/2 ton status

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    Ok... I'll try to make a long story short. I apologize in advance for not knowing all the technical terms... I'll do my best to explain the situation.

    A few months back, I had an Edelbrock intake, Performer carb and distributor (HEI from Summit) installed. The HP gain was great, but it was pinging like crazy. No one was able to get the timing right and the main problem with it appears to be that the timing mark is not in the right place. After having several people mess with it, I finally broke down and took it to a shop. It seemed to run great and well worth the $180. About a week later, I went to Pismo and it started running very hot (around 220*) and was pinging worse than ever. When I got back, I took it back to the shop and he installed a delay valve (??) on the vaccuum advance. He said that it would keep the timing from advancing so quickly. $90 later and I'm on my way. Then it was too retarded (hehe... retarded), so I took it back... another adjustment to the timing and idle, another $90 and off I go.

    Well, it's still not running right... it doesn't seem to be pinging any more, but it feels "flat", idles rough and I'm getting gallons per mile. I need to get my truck running right, but I'm hesitant to take it back to the shop cause it seems like this guy is just putting bandaids on a bigger problem and at $90 a pop, those are some expensive bandaids! If I'm gonna be dumping that kind of cash into my truck it would be nice if it was for upgrades and not just to keep it running.

    Any advice, recommendations, suggestions as to what I should try next??? /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif
     
  2. TopOff

    TopOff 1/2 ton status

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    It sounds like you got the Crane Cams adjustable vacuum advance. I suspect you also already have some different springs installed.

    Below is more than you ever wanted to know about HEI. Happy reading! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Ignition Timing 101 - Tutorial
    http://www.73-87.com/garage/101s.htm

    HEI TUNING SECRETS
    http://www.73-87.com/garage/hei.htm

    For even MORE 73-87 info/tech tips etc.
    http://www.73-87.com/garage/garage.htm


    SIMPLISTIC timing (if you know the terms) I believe this is for an automatic.

    14 initial + 21 centrifugal + 12 Crane adjustable vacuum advance without EGR = 47 total.

    14 initial + 21 centrifugal + 16 Crane adjustable vacuum advance with EGR = 51 total.

    14 initial + 21 centrifugal + 22-24 stock vacuum advance = 57-59 total. Too much!

    --------------------------------
    I have a manual, still not QUITE right, but I am running

    8 initial + 21 centrifugal + 12 Crane Adjustable Vacuum Advance = 41 total.

    I am getting GREAT freeway mileage but CRAPPY around town.
    This means, I need to change either my initial or bring my cetrifugal in sooner, while limiting my vacuum an equal amount so I can still get 41 at 2500 - 2700 RPM.

    But I will be changing my cam soon, so all that will go out the window and I get to try it again!
     
  3. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    Well you said at first your timing marks were off, did he put the right timing marks on or he just timed it to run good?
    I usually go by the vacuum, adjust the timing for the highest vacuum.
    And I would put it back to stock, and try it, if it still pings, I would use some octane boosters if the pinging goes then you have carbon buildup on the heads, you can either clean them or use higher octane fuel.
    Next, if all else fails, I would use the Jacobs milage master ignition, it's not cheap at $400, but it's an upgrade. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  4. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> More info on Cheryle's truck - The timing curve has not been adjusted, I feel that the delay thingy is a band-aid without adjusting the curve in the first place, but I am no expert in these matters. The timing chain *might* be worn since it's a fairly high mileage engine and it's never been replaced.

    Cheryle bought most of the parts that she added to it on my recommendation, yes, I did recommend the Edelbrock carb. It's a great carb for everyday kind of use and mine has been great to me off-road with some mods. I know not many people agree with me, but I don't like the Quadrajets since I can't tune them for [censored]. I figured that the Edelbrock would be easier for Cheryle to get tuned and would work well for her needs.

    Anyways, I don't think the carb is the problem, I think it's mainly that the distributor needs to be matched to the engine, and possibly the timing chain thing.

    What she would like, but will not ask for, is help in doing the work. I would help her out myself but I just plain don't have the time to do it, nor do I have the experience with distributor recurving for that matter. She is stubborn like a mule. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif I told her to just ask for help and someone would probably give her a hand with it, but she just won't do it. So, now I'm asking - would someone be so kind as to give Cheryle a hand with tuning her truck? It could be done at her place or she will probably be happy to leave it with you for however long it takes. She would likely be willing to pay for your time as well, so long as it actually works when she gets it back. Ideally the work would be done with her present, so she can watch and learn. I know she wants to learn to wrench on her own junk, but lacks the tools and experience to do so. </font color>
     
  5. gokartergo

    gokartergo 3/4 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    I agree with Shaggy.. She went to a shop that I recommened and he is now giving her the run around.. I would help. But what she needs is way above what I could do.. Please somebody give her a hand...Dan
     
  6. gokartergo

    gokartergo 3/4 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    She is stubborn like a mule.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yes she is.. /forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif
     
  7. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    Well for recurving I can only do it by trial and error.
    Get a set of different rate springs and weights and try combinations and narrow it down to the best curve.
    I am not that close so I will not offer to go help.
    I can guide someone to do the work or if she can come here, then I can help.
    I would still recommend the Jacobs ignition, it will solve this problem, and give better performance and milage.
    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> I'll be honest, I hate aftermarket ignition systems. I've heard an awful lot of horror stories about Jacobs ignitions dying, and my brother used to go through MSD stuff like it was going out of style. I'll stick with my rebuilt HEI with the high output internal coil.

    To stay on topic though - The distributor is new, and is the exact same one that I have on my truck. I did not recurve mine, but my engine is cammed also so it's not really the same thing. My distributor has worked great for 4 years. Well, 2 years considering it's been in the garage for the last 2. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif</font color>
     
  9. shewheeler

    shewheeler 1/2 ton status

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    By the timing mark being off, I assume (cause I know pretty much nothing about it) it means that the mark that you would normally look at to use a timing light is not where it's supposed to be. The guy at the shop had to calculate how many degrees it was off and go from there (??).

    I tried 91 octane gas and octane boosts to stop the pinging and it had no affect. I had absolutely no problems before swapping this stuff in.

    Evan and Dan pretty much got me pegged. Yes, I am stubborn and prideful when it comes to asking for help. I am also somewhat embarrassed by my lack of knowledge when it comes to my truck. I have neither the tools or know-how to fix or even want to attempt to fix this particular problem, but I am a good student and not afraid to get dirty. I would be more than willing to pay, feed, supply the alcoholic beverage of choice or all of the above to whomever would be so kind as to give me a hand. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  10. gokartergo

    gokartergo 3/4 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    but I am a good student and not afraid to get
    dirty. I would be more than willing to pay, feed, supply the alcoholic beverage of choice or all of the above to
    whomever would be so kind as to give me a hand.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yes she is more the willing to get dirty for her truck and she is a very fast learner... /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  11. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Hi Cheryle, I have read this whole post about your truck and Mike has even PMed me for you. I would be willing to help you get this mess all sorted out if you were to just call me. I have every tool needed to take on a job as such, and also 25 years of knowledge to go along with those tools. Give me a call (510-796-2600) and lets see what we can work out for a day and time.
     
  12. NoSmog73

    NoSmog73 1/2 ton status

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    Hey I turn to the best motor man...LOL /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  13. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Scott is the man. I'm sure he'll be able to help ya out.
    He has me fooled that he knows what he's doing. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  14. Gold Rush

    Gold Rush 1/2 ton status

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    Cheryle,

    First off it sounds like your distributor was put in wrong. What was the procedure for checking the timing mark? Sounds like they didn't check the timing mark properly either. Lots of holes in this story. I wish I didn't have so many things going on right now or I'd come down there and fix it for ya. Besides I could use a day of wheelin at Hollister. PM me next week if you haven't gotten it fixed yet.



    David
    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif
     
  15. shewheeler

    shewheeler 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks David.../forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Scott has stepped up and offered to try to fix my junk /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif I'm gonna meet him at his shop on Saturday afternoon. Thanks everyone! I'll let you all know how things work out!
     
  16. Don

    Don 1/2 ton status

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    It appear's or sound's like there is too much advance in the distributor. When You set the timing say at 8 before, the dist. add's in another 15-20 on top of that.

    Therefore some need's to be taken out of the Dist. by using a dist. machine, or my method, [ meaning I'm cheap but effective] By stopping the advance before it reache's it's highest point. Done by adding a stop, or limiter if You will, to the advance plate in the dist. A small [plastic preferably] stop, held in by a small machine screw, and a nut.

    Reinstall set timing, test drive, repeat if neccesary, sound's like a pain and it is, but when done You can add more "initial timing" at idle, which will make it run smoother, with more power, and not "ping" at cruising speed.

    And it is also possible that the "rubber" has let go on the Harmonic Balancer, then the outer ring "walk's" around the inner ring, and it's t.u. there too.
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Whoa, welcome to the way-back machine! Cheryle has had her timing issues figured out for awhile now... /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif </font>
     
  18. shewheeler

    shewheeler 1/2 ton status

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    Hey Don,

    Yah, what Evan said... it's all fixed up. I guess I should have made a follow-up post to let everyone know it's all good now!

    THANKS TO SCOTT (4X4HIGH) FOR TAKING THE TIME TO HELP ME OUT WITH MY P.O.S. IT RUNS GREAT NOW!!!
     
  19. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Thanks for the kind words Cheryle, glad I could help you out. Thats what this site is supposed to be all about.
     

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