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Timing REALLY close...need adjusting advice

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by 90K5, May 22, 2001.

  1. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    I've been working on "Ugly truck" for about an hour, and I keep getting the timing really close, but it won't stay running. It will start for maybe a second and then die. I've also been priming the carb since i don't trust his choke, so it also backfired a little, and shot some big flames in the air. Is it possible that I can fix it by loosening the distributor and turning it while its still in there? I have done that a few times and it got closer. I had someone tap it over to TDC (or close) and I set the rotor to #1, but I was a little late to tell them to stop cranking, so after it didn't start, I advanced it 1 wire clockwise, or #8, if it was still at 1. I am difinatly becoming a master distributor cap, and distributor remover, and I know 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 better that my birthday. Does it sound like it is a whole wire off, or just a few degrees, but enough to matter? Anyway, any help is appreciated.

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by 90K5 on 05/22/01 12:38 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  2. CrazeeBush

    CrazeeBush 1/2 ton status

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    aiight, here goes... Take out #1 plug and put your finger over it. Have a buddy bump the motor till you feel air pushing past your finger. Now take a big ass breaker bar and a socket and turn the motor over till the marks line up on the balancer. Then put the cap on and mark where #1 tower will be on the dist body. Take the cap off and line up the rotor to the mark yopu just made. That's it..

    -JoSH
    crazeebush@aol.com
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://josh.coloradok5.com>http://josh.coloradok5.com</A>
     
  3. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    The engine is alreay in, I'm trying to fix the timing thats way off, and the accessories are in the wy, so I can't turn it over with a breaker bar[​IMG]
    But, I got to thinking, and decided to rotate the wires on the cap, so the 1 is where the 2 was, etc. And I got it to start for a few seconds, until the fuel I poured in ran out. I checked the fuel pump again by taking the line off the carb, and it is fine, So I rotated the wires again, but the battery is dead again, so I'll have to charge it again, and wait.

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  4. CrazeeBush

    CrazeeBush 1/2 ton status

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    you can still turn it over from underneath. my motor was in when I did all of this.

    -JoSH
    crazeebush@aol.com
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://josh.coloradok5.com>http://josh.coloradok5.com</A>
     
  5. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    Really?? Where do I put the socket? On the flywheel?

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  6. DMK

    DMK 1/2 ton status

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    Put socket on bolt for balancer. Bis bolt in center. Also close is not TDC. How do you know timing is close without a timing light? 1st get motor at TDC on the compressioinn stroke. To find this get a TDC install distributor and if rotor points at the #1 firing position it is there. If it points at #6 you are 180 out. Once that is set then you can start truck and set base timing. Have fun.[​IMG]
     
  7. CrazeeBush

    CrazeeBush 1/2 ton status

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    yeah, bolt is in the middle of the crank pully. a deepwell works well to get to it. CLose don't really cut it here. It don't take much for it to run like crap. I follow the steps I gave you, and I never have probelms with the distributorpulling it out and putting it back. It goes right where it came from. Now, if you get the timing right and it still starts but then dies right off, check for vaccum leaks. I kinda forgot to attach my brake booster back and couldn't figure out why the motor kept dying. didn't take long to find that woosh of air, lol. I always forget something silly like that whenever I do a big repair. Just enough to piss you off. Ask ftn96, I forgot to put on my tcase filler bolt and took off up the road. the streak of tranny fluid still marks the road, lol. Nothing like driving of hearing "Oh [censored]! stop stop bring it back..." hehe anyway, enough rambling, time for bed.

    -JoSH
    crazeebush@aol.com
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://josh.coloradok5.com>http://josh.coloradok5.com</A>
     
  8. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch 1/2 ton status

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    yeah try Crazy's method... or dorian's if you can't seem to get it. I guess I sit back cause I have the tools.. TDC finder that screws into the cylinder through the plug hole, timing light, etc. You can also try rotating it by hand and using a flex light if you have one to look in the cylinder. Do not move the wires on the cap... bad idea. It isn't har to get at the balncer from the bottom... you can also remove the fan shroud for more clearence w/ little effort. If you haven't gotten lucky enough yet you'll have to turn the motor over by hand.

    -Mikey
    1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
     
  9. CrazeeBush

    CrazeeBush 1/2 ton status

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    yeah, well if you're rich and have money for fancy TDC finders, then use them. Personally I think my finger does as good a job as any, hehe Just playin man. I wish I had all sorts of nifty gadgets, but I'll break out my excuse for everything now: "I'm just a poor college student" hah! Agreed that moving the wires around is a bad idea. #1 should be the post just to the right of the block centerline with the vac advance pointing roughly at the back bolt for the valve cover. That's how I guage it.

    -JoSH
    crazeebush@aol.com
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://josh.coloradok5.com>http://josh.coloradok5.com</A>
     
  10. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch 1/2 ton status

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    It is kinda a luxery tool. When you are ripping apart your race motor every week you get all the tools to make it easier and faster... Obviously being at the smaller-time pro drag racing level helps w/ cash flow. LOL But really it comes down to having the tools to do the job right and w/out extreme hassles. If you think you can do much w/ a $29.99 Bluelight special, made in Tiawan tool set from K-mart... you're nuts LOL or extremely magical [​IMG] Overall I think 90k5 has learned a ton during this ordeal which is great! We all gotta learn one way or another... even I have learned the hard way a few more times then I would of liked LOL [​IMG]

    I too am a college student... going back to school to get my engineering degree.... get outta the shop and behind the desk so I can push pencils and get fat LOL [​IMG].

    Like someone started earlier you can line the mark up w/ the zero mark on the timing bracket... should be around 2 o'clock or so. Also 90k5 I'm extremely disappointed in your 4 letter word selection for the vehicle LOL [​IMG]... "Ugly truck" seems like too nice of a title LOL. Good luck!

    -Mikey
    1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by CaptCrunch on 05/23/01 01:39 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  11. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks everyone........I'm gonna do this today
    CaptCrunch - how about Piece of Sh*t!!!!!!!!

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  12. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch 1/2 ton status

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    Thata Boy! Spoken like a true ck5'er... with lots of #@$%$%$# ^$$& %^%##&*'s LOL [​IMG] Ugly truck sounds like something my grandma would say LOL.

    -Mikey
    1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
     
  13. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    I found the groove on the balancer...what do I line it up to?

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  14. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    I just realized I've been a Pooh-Bah....for a while!!!!!!

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  15. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    Do I line the balancer up to TDC? Then I bump the engine over to #1, right? Or will bringing the balancer to TDC do that? Took the distributor out again, set it to line up to #1 when its back in though. Is this all right?

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  16. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Balancer is tied to the crank, (so yes, when the crank is at 0, #1 is TDC or one revolution off) so unless the balancer ring has slipped (they can, but its not real common) you just rotate the crank by hand until the timing mark matches up to the 0 on the timing tag. Thats either TDC, or 1 crank/balancer rotation off where timing is concerned.

    This is still not a precise science, because the distributor CAP moves for small timing adjustments, but the rotor is immovable (without rotating engine) since it is tied to the camshaft via the gear. Even if the rotor is facing #1, and the plug wires are right, and you are at TDC, if the dist needs to be advanced or retarded (clock or counterclockwise) you still have to do it through through turning the cap. Too much advance though, and you will be back to the engine having a hard time turning over, which is easy to hear.

    Dorian
    My tech/links page: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html>http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html</A>
    No anti-theft measures on your truck? No pity when its stolen
     
  17. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    The line on the balancer will line up with the timing mark twice for each complete cycle. Once at TDC (just between the compression and power strokes) and once again when the cam has rotated only 180 degrees, or half of it's rotation (just between the exhaust and intake strokes).

    You have to make sure that cylinder #1 is just coming up to TDC and then look to see where the timing mark is. It should be right on the pointer just as the piston reaches Top Dead Center. Note that this must be just as the compression stroke is ending. The piston will top out in the bore one revolution after TDC, but the exhaust valve will be open as it approaches the top of its stroke during this cycle.

    The 4 cycles are suck, squish, bang, blow. TDC is between squish and bang. [​IMG]

    <font color=black>HarryH3 - '75 K5</font color=black>
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  18. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    I just tried that, but could only find 3 cycles...I guess that would be becasue there is no bang......if the spark plug wire is disconnected...so I should stop when its on which cycle? I stopped on the one before blow...and that wasn't right...more backfiring. I am so tired of this truck, and the guy who drives it...I can tell when he worked on it because there is red RTV on everthing he touched...like the fuel filter? Breather? Good plan dumbass. Sorry had to vent...maybe I'll fix it tomorrow.

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  19. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    My neighbor jsut looked at it with me, and neither of us can figure out whats wrong with it. the engine is at BDC, rotor at 3, just like it should be. Is it possible to time it when its not running? If so, I'm going to borrow a timing light tomorrow and hopefully get it fixed.

    90K5

    See my truck at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502>http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumindex?u=1329584&a=9886502</A>
     
  20. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Yeah it goes like this on a 4 stroke motor: intake (int. valve open, piston going down) compression (int./exh. valves closed, piston coming up, produces pressure if you hold your finger over the spark plug hole while someone turns the motor over with a wrench) combustion (plug ignites mix in cylinder, drives piston down, valves still closed) and exhaust. (piston coming back up, exhaust valve open)

    Take in mind that these are simplified, because cam pattern and other components change the equation, but the basica principle for valves is the same for these 4 strokes.

    To find TDC, if doing it by feel, you can take plug off #1. Put your finger over the hole. Have someone crank engine over with socket for you. As timing mark gets closer to #1, you should feel the compression building in the cylinder. If not, its not TDC on compression stroke, which is what you need.

    A GENERAL rule of thumb, since the dist cap is Keyed to the dist (fits on only one way) is that the terminal on the cap (where it is marked "tach" and "batt") should be facing straight towards the drivers side fender. If you were above the truck, with the front of the truck being 12 o'clock, the dist terminal should be facing at 9.

    Of course, that just gets you close, assuming the dist shaft/rotor aren't out 180, in which pulling the dist out and turning 180 degrees would solve the problem, as would changing the plug wires around 180 degrees.

    Its just easiest to start from scratch. Pull the cap off, leave the dist in the motor. Turn the motor until the timing mark is at 0 on the timing tag. At that point, the rotor HAS to be pointing at #1 cylinder, or 180 degrees the other way to be even close to correct. If its not in either position, the dist is off.

    If it IS pointing to #1, then you need to verify TDC, which you can do by A) feeling for compression with your finger, and B) to ensure the piston is at TDC, use an instrument to make sure that on the compression stroke, the piston moves ALL the way up. Once you know that you are on the compression stroke, use the tool (long thin screwdriver, etc., nothing that willl fall into the cylinder!!) to feel the top of the piston. Don't leave the instrument in there and try to crank the motor..you need two people for this to be safe, or you will end up scratching cylinder walls, denting pistons, etc. Have someone turn motor by hand until tool starts to go back down, then you know you JUST passed TDC, which is no big deal, you should be able to turn the motor backwards without any problem to get back to TDC. If the timing mark (thats the small groove of course)on the balancer does NOT line up at 0 on the tag when the piston is at the top of its stroke, the balancer ring has slipped.

    I know what a pain this is, I spent last weekend trying to get my car right. Just make sure to quadruple check the wires are in the right order, and that they are in the correct pattern (counterclockwise starting at 1-8 etc.)


    Dorian
    My tech/links page: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html>http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html</A>
    No anti-theft measures on your truck? No pity when its stolen
     

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