Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

Toe in checking adjusting Q's

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by tRustyK5, Dec 10, 2006.

  1. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    I'm trying to get my front end dialed in for best drivability. I have gone through every part of the front end, everything is tight and in good shape. King pins are good, new bushings and springs...plus one fender washer per side to eliminate death wobble. Caster is at 6 degrees positive.

    Currently it drives pretty good, but the steering seems a little twitchy. I am looking at the toe-in/out right now. If I measure at the inside of the rims edge at the rearmost parts of the rim (under the caliper) and then compare by measuring at the same part of the rim up front (just below the tie rod) I'm seeing a hair under 1/4" toed in.

    I run 39.5" TSL's which have a raised part running the circumference of the tire. If I measure at that part of the tire front and rear I see just proud of 3/8" toed in.

    How does everyone else measure toe? Do I have too much toe in according to what I've measured? Would having a bit too much toe-in cause the steering to be a bit twitchy/wander?

    What is everyone else running for toe?

    My truck used to go down the freeway with one finger on the wheel no problem before...and i just want to get back to that again. It's close now, but not quite there. My theory is the new KP bushings altered the toe a little.

    Rene
     
  2. Corey 78K5

    Corey 78K5 1 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    13,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Humboldt County, CA
    I always set mine at 1/8" toe in and always had good results........
     
  3. Ronnie4wd

    Ronnie4wd 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Posts:
    749
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Stockholm.Sweden
    I don´t know what my toe in is bc I got tired of straighten out the tierod after wheeling everytime
    and I don´t think it matters an inch here and there with 5 psi front and 4 in the rear:doah:

    Put small needles in your tires and measure out at them
    be between 1/8 and 3/8 and you should be fine:wink1:
     
  4. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    Where are you measuring that Corey? Rim edges, or out toward the edges of the tires?

    Rene
     
  5. thedrip

    thedrip 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Posts:
    1,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    generally toe-in is measured from the outside diameter of the tire. With fresh joints in the tie-rod, you should be between 1/16 and 3/16" toe in. One of the major reasons for toe-in is bushing deflection in an IFS vehicle. The force of the road against the tires pushes all the suspension back, and quite often a car with 1/8" of toe-in will show toe-out wear because of bushing deflection at speed. On a solid axle vehicle, the only things that can affect toe are tie-rod ends and BJ/kingpins, so when they're new, you really don't need much toe-in.

    Also usually more toe-in deadens up the steering feel. With 3/8 toe in, it should turn in like a battleship, not a sportscar.
     
  6. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    My concern is that with larger tires the measurements are exaggerated, plus how reliable is the sidewall of a TSL anyways?

    It does not turn in like a battleship at all, it turns in very quickly and doesn't seem to have much on center feel even on good roads. I realize it's never gonna track/steer/ride like a new car on small radials with the TSL's, I just want to get it back to how it was. Going by feel I'd say it was toed out, but the tape measure says different.

    From the reading I've done I see they purposely toe out race cars so they turn in very agressively...which makes sense.

    Rene
     
  7. thedrip

    thedrip 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Posts:
    1,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    toeing out a car basically makes up for cars generally having very poor ackerman. the inside tire needs to turn a LOT more than the outside tire, but most cars only have a small difference, if any. the toed out tire on the inside effectively ends up turns by that much more than the outside. VERY effective, makes the car a little wandering at speed.

    I followed the tranny part of your build, but not all of it. I'm assuming you went crossover? My truck felt all kinds of twitchy. The combination of hair longer pitman arm, and an effectively shorter arm on the knuckle makes for a much quicker steering ratio. Took a couple of days to get used to my truck with crossover.
     
  8. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Posts:
    22,063
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    Pleasanton, CA.
    Toe needs to be measured from the farthest point of the tire on the front and back side. It may be hard to do but the easiest way is to jack up the front and spin the wheel while making a chaulk mark around the circumference of the tire then set the truck back on the ground and roll it back and forth a few times to settle the suspension then at the same height measure between the chaulk marks at the front of the tire then again at the back of the tire and you can figure out if they are towed in or out and by how much.
     
  9. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    I've had the crossover for about two years now...and I noticed the difference when I first got it but even then it tracked nice and straight. The big difference now are the Alcan springs. I used to have uber stiff Rancho fronts (600+ lbs/inch) and the alcan's are 200 lbs/inch or less. With front springs that actually move now I really feel a lot more bumpsteer than ever before. Under medium/hard braking I get very pronounced dive in the front. Stops straight as an arrow though. It'll be interesting the first time I need to panic stop though...for as much as the front dives the rear raises up.

    Don't get me started on the body roll I have now.

    As an aside I am running brand new Bilstein 5150's too.

    As for cars being toed out in factory trim, that is mostly fwd drive cars. The tires tend to pull forward into toe nuetral or slightly in from bushing deflection etc.

    All of that is useless trivia to me at this point.

    Rene
     
  10. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    That oughta be fun with the big lugs on the TSL's. I'll give it a whirl though (pun intended)

    Rene
     
  11. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Posts:
    22,063
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    Pleasanton, CA.
    That's why i said it can be hard to do but without a toe gauge it will have to do.
     
  12. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    Tried the chalk method, had a lot of trouble trying to get reasonably accurate lines. Backed the truck up about 30 feet and pulled it forward again making sure the wheels were perfectly straight. Set up two 48" long straight edges along each outside tire so they're both touching the sidewalls lightly. Both straight edges are at the hub centerline.

    I'm toed in 9/16" of an inch on the overall outside diameter of the tires.

    So, I'll go ahead and assume this is too much toe. Next question is...is this likely to cause the type of steering feel I'm getting? Is 1/4" the way i've done it the apprpriate range I should be at?

    Rene
     
  13. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Posts:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Peoria, AZ
    I usually shoot for between an 1/8" - 1/4". For a bigger set of tires like 39.5 swamps 1/4" should be fine.

    Harley
     
  14. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    I aimed for 1/4" and ended up just a tick less than 1/4" Took it for a drive and it's better than it was. Still not what I consider 'perfect' but a lot closer. I suspect I'm just getting a lot more feedback through the steering because of the much softer springs.

    Rene
     
  15. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Posts:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Peoria, AZ
    A trac bar might help you out. I am guessing the spring rate lets the springs flex more in all directions & the steering feel is probably from the springs letting the axle move side to side a little more where the Rancho's kept it in check better.

    Harley
     
  16. FWP

    FWP CRS

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Posts:
    3,845
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Prescott Valley, AZ
    I have set mine up at anywhere from 1/2" to 3/4" using the lugs as a (poor)guide (42 TSL). The way I figured it, the factory calls for 1/4 " ish, I double the size of the tire= 1/2" ish. Close enough for me, not driving on the street very often.
     
  17. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2000
    Posts:
    36,180
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Location:
    E-town baby!
    Not a bad thought...might be just as good an idea for the rear. :thinking:

    Rene
     
  18. Ronnie4wd

    Ronnie4wd 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Posts:
    749
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Stockholm.Sweden
    I :dunno: but if your having troubles measuring:
    Put all four wheels on the ground,put a needle in the middle of tirethread on each front wheel at the rearest part of it ,measure
    then roll your truck forwards til the needles are 180 degrees rolled and they are in front of the axle and measure again there I think is the easiest way to measure the toe in.:crazy:
     
  19. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Posts:
    4,395
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    VA
    I set mine up (35's) by measuring an 1/4" in. It felt a bit vague driving. I had it checked with optical gauges and they lessened the toe in by degrees (sorry, can't remember how much the degree figure was), turning the adjuster on a 10 bolt tie rod alters the toe by 1 degree per complete turn of the adjuster. It only took one turn to make my truck drive much better. So I reckon I must be about 1/8" in?
    It'll never feel as sure footed as it did though with this lift and soft springs, but I can live with the trade off.
     

Share This Page