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Took the punch and hammer to the range

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by jjlaughner, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    My new HK USP 40 Compact was shooting way left before. I cleaned it up real good and took it back to the range with a punch and hammer... /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Most where at 12yards, #5 was a step back because I hit the sight the wrong way /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif #7 is at 30 yards, #8 is 7yards after the final adjustment.
    Its good enough for me right now (till I get nightsites installed after the new years). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  2. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    You sure its the sights though? I have off days too, but what I did when I got my toys is had them bench aligned to make sure the problem wasnt with my sights. This way I know if its my shooting or the gun.

    #6 and 8 had the best groupings- Some of them had some funky low ones /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    I do a lot more indoor shooting than out, but # 4 looked to be good with a bit of recoil sensitivity.
     
  3. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    yeah some of them I rattled off the 10 rounds.
    We went to the range the first night I shot low and left, thinking it was mainly me plus the short barrel. Then my buddy shot it and put 10 rounds right on top of my 10 rounds. I can shoot my fullsize 9 with good groups, grant-it I'm not use to "this" compact yet, but I think the targets show how the groupings are and by moving the sites how it changed.
    I bought the gun used from a left hander and you could tell the rear sight had been moved, the front was completely out at one point. I tapped them back toward center (like my fullsize) and its getting better.

    This is my target from my fullsize from the first of the month before I picked up the compact
    [​IMG]
     
  4. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You sure its the sights though? I have off days too, but what I did when I got my toys is had them bench aligned to make sure the problem wasnt with my sights. This way I know if its my shooting or the gun.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Your sights are supposed to be adjusted to you, not you adjust to your sights. There is no perfect sight position. Whatever makes you hit the 10 ring every time is your ideal sight position.

    Where did you learn otherwise?
     
  5. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    I learned otherwise because other people could never shoot your gun and vise versa. Im a NRA Pistol Instructor, and my instructor did the same. Imagine trying to teach someone how to shoot to a sight picture that would vary from person to person.

    in anything less than 50 yards there is no need for adjustable sights. If you get your guns adjusted by a good armorer, it is you, not the gun. The first thing *most* people do when they cant shoot on target is blame the gun for being crappy or the sights are wrong.

    Sure if your a sniper, or varminter, or something which requires huge distances, you'd keep your log book, bullet data, etc. Your gun is yours, nobody else using it.

    Imagine now, that you were to take my "custom tuned " rifle or pistol, and you try and shoot- You'd probably not even hit the target. Unless of course, it was tuned to be accurate.

    This is why people get rifles bore sighted- and then they adjust the scope to the alignment of the barrel. The same applies for pistols, you dont just slap on some sights and then just keep adjusting it until you hit it right. Your compensating for an error.

    Imagine in an emergency you were to lend your side arm to someone- Would they be able to shoot it accurately? I know my students when their finished with me can pickup any factory aligned (or armorer aligned) sight and be able to hit well.
     
  6. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    Pistols are an extension of your arm in a sense. If you give your pistol, sighted for you, to someone else and they fail to hit, that is their fault, not the gun's, unless the range is unreasonable.

    That said, nobody else should be able to aim your gun at a reasonable distance and hit the exact same point of the target you did. No two people's battle sight zero is the same. Mechanically aligning the sights to the barrel is all fine and dandy, but who is looking down those sights and ensuring that the sight picture is exactly how a shooter will aim that firearm?

    The fact of the matter is, no two people look down the same set of sights and see the same, "Ideal" sight picture. You can bore sight all you want--but ultimately it's the sight picture that YOU deem perfect that detirmines where your bullets go.

    If you're all over the paper, that's one thing...but if you're stacking bullets on top of each other, but not in the center of the target, it's obvious that whoever your gun is sighted for, you're simply not seeing the same site picture.

    I can't imagine any pistol instructor would tell someone otherwise. I've never heard any marksmanship training that is that way.

    If you're all over the paper, no amount of adjustment is going to make you hit the center of the target repeatedly.....but if you're consistant and you're not hitting the center, that's the gun, not you.

    Shooting is a very repeditive motion. As long as you can repeat the same motion over and over and over again, it doesn't matter what gun or where it's adjusted--as long as it's adjusted to however you're shooting, and it's consistant, I view that as sucess whether or not your buddy can pick it up and do the same or not.

    In most defense scenarios you'll never see the sights anyway.
     
  7. TrcksR4ME

    TrcksR4ME 1/2 ton status

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    There is some skill in shooting, where you hit the target has a lot to do with how you hold the gun and pull the trigger. I know when I first started shooting paper target with my pistol that I shot left a lot, and my buddy who had been in the Marines could get them right in the center. He gave me some tips on what he was taught and that got me a lot closer to hitting the center. It wasn't the gun or the sights, simnply the way I was pulling the trigger.

    Hmmm...what was my point /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif I dunno, its too damn late /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  8. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    Tim shut up. The guy knows what he's talking about. Boresighting is the correct way to begin the sighting in procedure. When I was in the Army, during training movements, we boresighted the tanks 4 or 5 times a day. At the gunnery range, twice a day. There is an imagineary line from the center of the barrel and the same line from the center of the sights. The point those two lines intersect is, IIRC, called "paralax" or somthing similar. For the M1A1 I think that distance was 1200 meters. A scope is inserted into the end of the gun tube with a viewfinder and crosshair. One man would look through that viewfinder while another moved the turret/gun so that the crosshair was on the target 1200 meters away. Then the internal sight inside the tank is moved to the same point as the crosshair on the boresight device. This insures that the sight and the gun barrel are looking at the same exact point. Sometimes I remeber looking through the boresight device, the climbing inside the tank and looking at where the tanks sight is pointing...Sometimes I've seen a good 20+ meter difference @1200 meters. If the tank hadn't been boresighted, then that enemy target would have been missed. You can have your "perfect/ideal sight picture" but if the sight and gun barrel aren't looking at the same spot, you're most likely gonna miss. Fine tuning can be done with the adjustable sights to account for range, wind etc. This all assuming that you're using the sights to aim. If you are one of the few that can shoot "instinctively" and be accurate, then this doesn't apply. I can shoot instinctively very very well with a bow, but with a firearm at more than 20 yards or so, I have to use sights to be consistant.

    That said, here is my tack driver results-

    Glock model 22 40 S&W. 20 rounds in ea target at 10 yards.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif
     
  9. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    Alright guys cool down! /forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif
    I bought the gun from a lefty and I could tell the sites where out of wack, I centered them the best I could then went back to the range for final adjustment. I know it was likely the gun. Right after I got it I shot 10 rounds and all where 5-6" low/left, handed the gun to my buddy and he (aiming at the center also) put 10 rounds right on top of mine.

    I'm not certified or this or that but I know it was the sites. They may not be prefectly adjusted still (they will be when I get my night sights installed and bench aligned) but if you look at my fullsize groupings then at #8 you will see both are very similar and I know my fullsize 9 has been bench tested/sighted witht he night sites. SO, the new compact is close enough for now, much better then shooting by someone elses lefty adjusted sightings for my carry weapon /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

    And like Tim said, different guns, different people and have different sightings. Take a look at all the different sights out from the 3 dot, to the ball and post, ghost rings, etc, etc, etc, people shoot what and how is comfortable to them.
     
  10. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]

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    [/ QUOTE ]


    Here your doing the same thing I do. Your reacting to the rocoil before it happens, causing you to push down and left (since I'm guessing your a righty).
    /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  11. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    some more of my targets

    [​IMG]

    (rotate this 180degrees, the targets where printed so the top two top was up and the bottom two top was down, so you could rotate the paper /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
    [​IMG]

    This is my fullsize 9 at 25yards and slow shots (one every second or two)
    [​IMG]

    Rapid fire... pop, pop, pop
    [​IMG]
     
  12. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    [​IMG] /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

    [​IMG] /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
     
  13. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    Is that a DA/SA or a SA only? The HK's always felt pretty at home, but the HK's also make your wallet feel pretty light. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  14. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    Tim, its bogus to practice shooting with a sight picture that you have no reference for. You need consistancy , day after day after day. I would say with the exception of some bad ammo, most guns will be accurate out to 25, 40 yards, on a bench.

    And there is an IDEAL sight picture. Its why you dont just have one dot in the front of a pistol. Its why you have the three dots, or lines, or whatever system you have, there is an ideal sight picture, that is designed to be inline with the bore itself.

    If your stackin shots up, that just means your consistant, but not necesarily correct. If you always have a slight pull with your trigger finger, you might go to the right a bit (if your righty), and all your groupings will be "right" of target. Could it be the sights? Sure, but if you adjust your sights instead of adjusting your bad shooting habits, its really not the right way.

    And I cant imagine any instructor telling their students to fix the sights rather than fixing their shooting.

    If your consistant, and your still not on target, its worth the money to get it bore sighted. Especially if someone else can use your weapon and be on target, (and not compensating by aiming different), then the problem is *most* likely with the shooter.
     
  15. Desert Rat

    Desert Rat Fetch the comfy chair

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Could it be the sights? Sure, but if you adjust your sights instead of adjusting your bad shooting habits, its really not the right way.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That summarizes the whole argument up quite accurately.
     
  16. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I guess I've never had bad habits so I've never had this problem.

    Being consistant and shotting incorrectly is nearly impossible in my experience. Those that shoot the same over and over again usually have good habits so it's a non issue.

    That's why I said don't adjust the sights if you're all over the paper.

    Boresighting is the correct way for an M1 because they have crosshairs, not open sights. Every person can look at a set of crosshairs and see the same sight picture.

    You are correct in that there is an, "ideal" sight picture, but everyone looks at the sights differently, and no two people see the exact same ideal sight picture.

    That is why sights are made to move, even if they are fixed.
     
  17. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    Fixed sights are only made to move under certain circumstances- poor shooting skills is not one of them. Some of the normal reasons for adjusting your sights-

    1. First time from factory
    2. Switching sights (Trjicon or others)
    3. Barrel change or replacement
    4. Compensating for natural wear of barrel.
    5. Switching of Ammo- Ball vs JHP's, Vs +P loads, etc. None of which is really that important for short distances.

    You may be a natural shooter, but I ASSURE you there are a lot of people who arent.

    If you always pull your index finger like a hook (which a lot of shooters do), you will consistantly shoot right. If you always sit your gun in your hand in a bad position, and you always do that, you will have consistantly (but not accurate) shots.

    Consistancy does not equate correct. I always get bump steer, and I know how to compensate for the bump steer, but it doesnt mean its a solution to the problem.

    When your dealing with 800 meter shots, yes, the rifle should be perfectly adjusted to the individual shooter. But On a 25 yd shot, it is not necessary.
     
  18. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Is that a DA/SA or a SA only? The HK's always felt pretty at home, but the HK's also make your wallet feel pretty light. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Both are DA/SA, got to love'em /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
     
  19. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]


    Boresighting is the correct way for an M1 because they have crosshairs, not open sights. Every person can look at a set of crosshairs and see the same sight picture.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Damn Timmy, you're more ignorant than usual today. So what if a tank has crosshairs? Doesn't make a damn bit of difference. A sight is a sight. Scopes/crosshairs/open sights/adjustable sights all do exactly the same thing, but go about doing it differently. Forget about your damn sight picture, thats the only thing that stuck with you from whatever training you've had, and you're desperatly clinging to that bit of knowledge trying to save face. I don't want to type it all out so you can understand it. If you don't get it yet, then it's pointless to keep trying.

    You'd think that as many times as you've been the lone ranger in your ideas/arguments, you'd figure it out. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
     

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