Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

traction aids...which is better clutch or no clutch?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by dirtwarrior17, Feb 7, 2005.

  1. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    I have a corp. 10b and want to run some sort of limited slip with 4.10 gears on 36x13.50 tires. What limited slip is better: clutch or no clutch? I think the theory is clutched will work with one tire of the ground if you slow down and let the clutches grab but clutchess won't... anybody have experience with these?

    How long do the clutches usually last?
     
  2. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,978
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    What non-clutch "limited slip" are you thinking of? Only one that doesn't use some sort of clutch I can think of is the Zexel Torsen units, and those aren't recommended for trucks from what I recall.

    LS diff's typically last 100,000+ miles, but they aren't very good for trucks, lest they would be more popular. Note all HD truck apps (that I can think of) and all GM truck apps I have personally seen don't use clutch type LS, except the gov-lock 14FF, and the gov-lock isn't QUITE a normal LS diff, even though it uses clutches.

    Trucks are too heavy and in off-road situations can theoretically put close to half the vehicles weight on one wheel...posi/LS just isn't going to have the clutch friction to turn the wheel with all the weight on the ground, leaving you with the tire with no weight spinning, and the one that needs traction not turning.
     
  3. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Posts:
    16,217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Mesa , Arizona USA
    Do you have an open carrier ? get a Lockright and have awesome traction , with no street driving issues . I just replaced my Ez Locker with one and love it :D
     
  4. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    Yeah i've heard that too... I also hear people saying if your real easy on the throttle and apply slow gas it grabs enough to move you along.
    I want a lockright but I don't know if the corp 10 b will hold up for too long. I've heard that with anywhere around 400 ft lbs EDIT-i meant at the flywheel, the 10b will frag even when they're stilll open and on the road with no load but i assume thats with a 40 pound right foot. The motor will be putting out roughly around 400 ft lbs and 375 hp. that is just an estimate but it should be with 15-20 of that. I don't want to swap an axle yet because i've heard people on this site saying 10bs can live but for how long and under what conditions? Does anybody have a corp 10b in the rear with 35's, 4.10 gears, lockright, and anywhere around the same hp/torque numbers? If you have a similar setup your knowledge would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

    Yeah its open right now but i want to change that as soon as possible without fraging my ring/pinion or shafts. I am afraid that if i get a stronger 4.10 ring and pinion it will kill my shafts. I like the clearence of the 10b and would be willing to throw some money towards stronger shafts once i get a stronger ring and pinion in there but is it worth it? It will be mostly 50/50 on and off road.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2005
  5. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Posts:
    16,217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Mesa , Arizona USA
    10 bolts have a decent pinion bearing considering what type of axle it is , bigger than my 12 bolt . If anything the lockright adds strength to the carrier . The weak link will more than likely be shafts and u-joints , shafts are plentiful enough to carry 2 with you . The locker will improve your acceleration , so you won't have to get on it as much to move the truck .

    I had a 10 bolt with a Gov Loc , that let go , the Gov Loc itself , no shaft problems or bearing problems . Not all that horsepower you mention is going to make it through the drivetrain , some will be lost due to accessories etc . I don't think a properly setup gearset , a decent small block , and a locker will neccessarily fry it . You just need to watch yourself . Most of the time on trails your going slower . Maybe some steep hills where it goes from wet to dry may be snap a shaft if your hot footing it , but for normal driving and some wheeling don't discount it if you want the ground clearance . :k5: :k5:
     
  6. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    thats what i needed to know... thanks man.
     
  7. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    oh yeah, if you stand on it with a lock right and light them up while locked then continue to spin em while in a turn does it stay locked?
     
  8. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Posts:
    16,217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Mesa , Arizona USA
    Lockrights , stay locked all the time your on the gas , except when turning . You see the crosshaft in the carrier pushes the couplers into the side gears . When turning the actual road , if traction is good , won't let the tires turn the same speed and one side uncouples and overruns the dog teeth . If you spin them fast enough to overcome the road surface it will stay locked .

    From my actual experience , turning from a stop with plenty of gas , it stays locked and the tires squeal around corner . I don't make enough torque to light them up from a straight stop , so no help there . And on dirt and rocks in AZ , it never unlocks on the trail . The best mod I have ever done to anything if you ask me ( besides marrying a woman who loves me ) :D
     
  9. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    Sounds like Im saving for a lockright, 4.10 gears, detroit for the front, and 4 cromo shafts...


    Have you ever heard of the OX u-joint? Better be damn good for 130 bucks.
     
  10. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,978
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    IMO the 14SF is the way to go if you want ground clearance but with strength, AND (big AND there) the 14FF is overkill for what you are doing.

    I had NO problems with the gov-lock 8.5" in my '83 w/stock carbed 305, yet destroyed the 8.5 in my truck now with the TPI 355. (31" tires on the '83, 33 on the truck now) The one I just blew up was tight as could be too...I had inspected it and haven't put more than 5000 miles on it since inspection. It blew on the street, straight line acceleration.

    14SF can let you keep your 6 lug wheels, loses something like 1/2" ground clearance, (not much) has a 9.5" ring gear, and 33 spline axles.

    Anyways, beyond that, the test for posi diffs in cars is something like 40ft lbs of force to make one wheel slip, and thats not much. Eaton is making their LS diff with something like 800lb springs as an option, but there is no comparison to something that is physically locked up.

    From what I saw for the 14SF when I was looking, a real locker was pricey, at least compared to the LS diffs I had seen.
     
  11. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Posts:
    9,095
    Likes Received:
    144
    Location:
    california
    If thats true you have nothing to worry about..... :p:

    Forget your rear 10B and get a 14BSF or FF. If you can't afford intake gaskets than I don't know where chromo shafts are coming from, besides, even with aftermarket shafts it's still an 8.5" diff.
     
  12. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    :surepal: :surepal: don't know about that one... We both think each other is full of $hit when it comes to my motor, just leave it at that.(until i get the dyno sheets, heh.)

    anyway the 8.5" is not what im worried about because i plan to put lockrights front and rear along with strengthened 4.10's but this is all in a couple months when i get some cash flow.

    I would swap for a 14b but i don't want to lose the clearence and add more weight. I know they are a hell of a lot stronger but I wouldn't be suprised if the 10b with gears, lockrite, and shafts lasts a long time.
     
  13. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Posts:
    9,095
    Likes Received:
    144
    Location:
    california
    You obviously haven't had it dyno'd yet....I can almost guarantee you''ll be lucky to break 200HP and 275 ft lbs to the ground with 4.10's, a th700R4 and 36" tires.
    Unlike you I've had mine dyno'd and know the difference between crank power and power that matters.
     
  14. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    where did you get those numbers?


    I thought you lose about 75 hp throught the drivetrain not 175 and 125 ft lbs.


    power that matters = rwhp. I've never heard of rwhp until just now.......lmao:screwy: :rotfl: :surepal:

    no serious that loss will still be less with a lockup converter won't it?

    rotational mass definetly kills hp but i have 35x12.50s right now not 36x13.50's that im planning for my next tire.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2005
  15. Jonny-K5

    Jonny-K5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 27, 2003
    Posts:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SoCal

    actually you can lose around 30-40% crank power going thru an auto tranny, rear end and turning big tires.
     
  16. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    that i can understand... that would be about 250 rwhp and 275 ft lbs to rw.

    what kind of percentage would it be with a manual?
     
  17. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Posts:
    9,095
    Likes Received:
    144
    Location:
    california
    Like Johnny said, it's about 35% loss in normal circumstances. You plan on 36x13.50 IROCKS IIRC so that is what matters. If you ever actually buy them. With heavy swampers, a 14BSF that can handle those tires, and a TH700R4 I would bet you would be around 40-45% loss. Plus, I basically know what is in your engine. You are pretty optimistic believing you have 375HP and 400 ft lbs. I would bet you have right at or under 325HP and 325 ft lbs in reality, at the crank of course. And thats with not running the same "fluid" in both the oil and cooling systems... :whistle:

    I was like you once, thought my new engine was an animal. Threw my head back when I hammered on it, punched in the numbers of what the manufacturers claimed each performance part made and came up with some number near 375HP and well over 400 ft lbs. I actually got it on the dyno and had right above 200HP and right under 300 ft lbs to the ground. Less than I thought but I'm also going through an unlocked 700, 14BFF, 4.10's, and heavy 35x16 boggers. In reality I am probably more like 320HP and 370 ft lbs at the crank. Your engine has nothing over mine, Mine is a bigger 406, and mine keeps it's oil and coolant seperate. :p:
     
  18. k5floyd

    k5floyd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    313
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Friendswood, Tx
    i think you're a bit optimistic with your crank power estimate too....:thinking: :dunno:
     
  19. dirtwarrior17

    dirtwarrior17 Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Posts:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Redding, CA
    Like i said it is an estimate but it came from desktop dyno and Im not saying that it WILL make those numbers but i have talked to some of the builders buyers with pretty much the same motor as mine and a couple came out to 420 hp with a 750 cfm edelbrock on it. Here is how i see/saw it....

    stock hp: 210
    Manifold 15-25
    tbi 15-20
    cam 20- 25
    headers 15-20
    exhaust 10
    compression 15
    bore 15
    chip 20
    Kand n xtreme filter lid and kandn filter 10
    higher fuel psi 10
    heads 15-25 they had work done to em( i know im gonna hear "camel humps
    are pieces of ... and so on" they may be but they made 365 hp from the factory on the 327 corvettes)

    those are pretty modest considering what most people say and the manufacture says it is.

    If you add it up its 360 at the lowest possible gains and the lowest manufactur ratings. about 390 at the highest possible gains. desktop dyno says it will be 375 at somewhere between 5000 and 5500 but i'll probably never get it that high anyway. torque is 374 at 2000 and 398 at 4000.

    It seems logical and if im off point it out because i really want to know what this thing is going to make.
     
  20. k5floyd

    k5floyd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    313
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Friendswood, Tx
    put it on the rollers... then we'll see:D
     

Share This Page