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TRANNY SWAP-- HELP! --

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by HARRYS81, Feb 7, 2002.

  1. HARRYS81

    HARRYS81 Registered Member

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    I HAVE AN 81 K5 WITH 350/T350/NP208 TRANSFER CASE. I BOUGHT A 700 R4 OUT OF 90' S-10, BUT AM HAVING TROUBLE GETTING THE RIGHT OUTPUT SHAFT?? . CALLED ADVANCED ADAPTERS THEY DON'T HAVE IT!! SAID TO CALL GM, SO I DID, AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT.(NEITHER DO I !!) HERE'S MY QUESTION.....DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET THE PROPER OUTPUT SHAFT (AFTERMARKET) OR DOES ANYONE KNOW THE GM PART # FOR IT SO I CAN GET IT THROUGH THEM. HOW HARD IS IT TO CHANGE? ALSO DO I NEED TO BUY THE LOCK-UP KIT FOR THIS TRANS (IT'S OVER $100) OR CAN I JUST BYPASS IT. AND USE LOCK-UP MANUALLY THROUGH A SWITCH?????? . IF SOMEONE COULD LET ME KNOW OR EVEN JUST DIRECT ME TO A WEBSITE WITH LOTS OF INFO ON THIS PROJECT, THAT WOULD BE GREAT!!!! THANKS !
     
  2. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    the 700 came mounted to a 208 i cant figure out why you cant get ahold of th shaft. but if you cant find it, i think i have one.....i just did a 700 swap onto my 205 xfer case so i think i still have the old shaft lying around...im not the kind of kid that wanted to tear down the whole trans so i had someone else put the output shaft in, and you may consider doing the same. and as for the lockup, i never hooked mine up either. the hardest part is the tv cable set up, go to Bow-tie overdrives on the web, and seriously think about the set they have. i didnt see one that worked witha spread bore quad. so i fabbed the linkage up.


    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     
  3. HARRYS81

    HARRYS81 Registered Member

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    TORKDSR,
    THANKS FOR THE INFO. THE 700 R4 CAME OUT OF A S-10 IT WAS BOLTED TO A NP 207 OR 231 ? TRANSFER CASE SO IT HAS WRONG SHAFT. IF YOUR LOOKING TO GET RID OF YOURS I'M INTERESTED &amp; COULD YA TELL ME THE SPLINE COUNT IF YA GET A CHANCE
     
  4. Blue85

    Blue85 Troll Premium Member

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    Harry,
    Please stop YELLING. To put that 700 in your Blazer, you have to do three things: Get the right output shaft, wire in the lockup and set up the TV cable. You have to do all three.
    First of all, if you can do it without spending too much, just get rid of the S-10 tranny and find one for a full-size that mated to a 208 to begin with. The work to change the output shaft is basically the same work as to do a rebuild.

    You have to have lockup, or you will burn up the transmission when you are in overdrive. You can get a stand alone kit from B&amp;M or somebody or find the factory lockup stuff from another full-size truck, 82-86 with the 700tranny. Plus it is the only way to get good gas mileage. And if you don't want good mileage and don't want to EVER use overdrive, why swap in a 700?

    For the TV stuff, the tranny will never work anywhere near decent without the right cable setup. I would try to get a TV cable bracket from an 82-86 truck that came with a 700. You can find in several places instructions for making your own bracket, but if you just use factory stuff, it is more of a no-brainer.

    You should also do a bit of research and make sure that the S-10 700 used as many clutch discs as the full-size ones. If not, you should probably pass on putting it in your K-5.

    Also, is the 700 longer than the 350? If so, you are looking at relocating the cross member. Is the tranny to T-case adapter the same? If not, you will have to come up with that, too.

    <font color=green>Today's Forecast: Partly cloudy with a chance of mud</font color=green>
     
  5. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Actually I don't think there really is proof for the "burn up in overdrive without lockup" theory.

    Sure it happens, but the 700 is or was, almost universally, not cooled enough.

    The 2004R and 700R4 share the same fluid path for lockup, yet folks with the 2004R that have run no lockup for YEARS have had no problems.

    You properly cool the 700R4, and you won't have problems.

    However, its there, its easy to wire up, so do it.


    Dorian
    My tech/links page: &lt;a target="_blank" href=http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html&gt;www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html&lt;/a&gt;
    Why insist on counting when the ring gear has the tooth counts stamped in?<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by dyeager535 on 02/08/02 11:13 AM.</FONT></P>
     
  6. i would like your output shaft out of your th350 if you don't want it.

    <font color=blue> Experience enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

    </font color=blue>
     
  7. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    im with you man, i worried that after the swap id be over heating without the lock-up, but i didnt really want it. the less computers/electronics the better. so i bought a trans gauge, and the temp never gets above 180 cept when im plowing, and that has nothing to do with a lockup.

    and while we're on the subject: could a manual lockup be good far anything besides OD, i mean if i hit a mud puddle locked in second, will that keep the Tcc from slipping? will it be beneficial?

    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     
  8. Blue85

    Blue85 Troll Premium Member

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    I have tested the "burn up in OD without lockup theory"! Not on purpose, of course, but I the brake pedal switch got moved out of position one time and I lost lockup. I have a temp gauge in the pan, too, but the one on the output line really reveals what's going on in the torque converter. The torque converter is the greatest source of heat and therefore the last thing the fluid passes through before heading out to the cooler. It normally never runs any more than 140 or 160, but without lockup it was running 200 on the highway and when I came to a stop, the fluid flow and airflow were reduced and that sucker got almost to 260. The pan read almost 200, but it was still climbing before I got moving again. Granted, that was with a 1950rpm stall converter, but that really isn't much higher than stock. In 3rd gear, the cooling was no problem and the temperature was fine.

    If you're not going to run lockup, you need a non-lockup torque converter. You also need a very big oil cooler. But why wouldn't you run lockup? You like heat and wasted gas? It's easy and cheap to make lockup work when you already have a lockup tranny.

    <font color=green>Today's Forecast: Partly cloudy with a chance of mud</font color=green>
     
  9. Blue85

    Blue85 Troll Premium Member

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    Manual lockup is useful for increasing your compression braking for descents, etc. However, you can't do it to a 700 that came out of a carb truck without doing some modifications to the valve train. All you can really do is have the option of not using lockup at all until you get into 4th gear. If the 700 is from an ECM truck, you will definately need some kind of outside controller to lock up above a certain speed or something. OR you can do some wiring changes inside the transmission to lock all the time you are in 4th and only when in 4th. To swap entire valve bodies between the two kinds is not really feasible, but it is possible to swap the TCC control valves between them, since the valve bodies have all of the same holes. The ECM trucks just had plugs there.

    <font color=green>Today's Forecast: Partly cloudy with a chance of mud</font color=green>
     
  10. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    If lockup is easy to run and there (which it is with a 700) do it. i'm not advocating disabling it, I'm saying it CAN be run without it, without any real ill effects, as long as the tranny is cooled well. 260 is fairly high, that's for sure. (but stock it couldn't be lower than 195, so its not that much of a stretch)

    3rd gear is locked as well, so you should see the same heat in 3rd as you do in 4th.

    As to carbed truck, why does it matter? If its got an electrical plug on the side, you can toggle it. The lock/unlock voltage comes through the plug in the side of the tranny, if you supply power, the converter locks. If you interrupt power, it unlocks. The early 700's (my '83 for instance) didn't use an ECM per se, but did use VSS as an input for tranny lockup.

    Dorian
    My tech/links page: <a target="_blank" href=http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html>www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html</a>
    Why insist on counting when the ring gear has the tooth counts stamped in?
     
  11. Blue85

    Blue85 Troll Premium Member

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    3rd gear is locked as well, so you should see the same heat in 3rd as you do in 4th

    <hr></blockquote>

    Not true at all. A 700 does not cool as well in 4th as it does in 3rd. Also, for travelling at the same speed, the engine is providing more torque in OD than it is in 3rd. This is obviously true, since the power is the same in both cases, but the engine speed is different. For a torque converter, slip is proportional to torque and heat is proportional to slip, so you create more heat in OD than in 3rd.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    As to carbed truck, why does it matter? If its got an electrical plug on the side, you can toggle it.

    <hr></blockquote>

    There is a fundamental difference in the way the lockup is done on an ECM truck and on a carb truck. The carb truck uses a (ported) vacuum switch to control lockup based on engine load and the insides of the transmission are also different. The carb trucks have a valve that supplies or cuts pressure for the lockup based on governor (engine speed) and TV (throttle position) pressures. This is to unlock the clutch for acceleration and downshifts. When this valve is not supplying pressure, the converter clutch can not lock, whether the solenoid is engaged or not. All the solenoid does is vent this pressure to the pan, except for when it is engaged. (This valve is in the valve body, it is different from the actual lockup valve, which is located inside the oil pump housing.) On the ECM trucks, that valve is missing and the hole in the valve body has a plug in it, so that pressure is always present at the solenoid. Then the lockup is as simple as whether or not 12V is applied at the connector. This task is done by the ECM in those vehicles, so something else is needed to replace it. Maybe not everyone thinks like me, but a toggle switch on the dash that I'm supposed to flip every time I speed up and slow down would drive me batty



    <font color=green>Today's Forecast: Partly cloudy with a chance of mud</font color=green>
     
  12. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    So what you are saying is that two 700's, both with 3 wires going into the side of them, both with a TV cable (say, 1982 and an '88) one with ECM, one without, don't lock up the same way? I understand the internal wiring can be different, (pressure switches) and I also don't doubt that internal plumbing could or did change, but I don't buy that you can't toggle it on one, but you can the other.

    If there are only two external things that govern lockup (electrical and mechanical) and you only modify the electrical by controlling the lockup yourself, instead of when the VSS commands lockup, you haven't changed what the tranny "sees" when it is told to lockup. It "sees" 12 volts. Nothing else monitors this. The simple fact of the matter is, you cut electrical power to the 700, you won't get lockup. You apply 12 volts, you will get lockup.

    www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html
    Why insist on counting when the ring gear has the tooth counts stamped in?
     
  13. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Lockup, manual or not, works better at keeping the fluid cool (less "slipping" in the converter) and increases MPG. Keeps engine RPM's down a bit as well which can't hurt the engine : )

    Dorian
    My tech/links page: <a target="_blank" href=http://www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html>www.dorianyeager.com/index2.html</a>
    Why insist on counting when the ring gear has the tooth counts stamped in?
     
  14. HARRYS81

    HARRYS81 Registered Member

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    "Blue Beast" you can have the output shaft out of the t350 if ya want it. (27 spline) i'll have to pull it out of the trans. let me know what you wanna do
     
  15. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    i have a schematic of the 4 wires that come off the trans, and i have the diagrams for lock and unlock, and it looks as though its just the difference between an open circuit and a closed one. the trans is out of an 85 carbbed k5. can
    ti just control the lockup from the wires? what valve body differences are there? but i like th compression braking idea, now theoretically i can "stall" the truck by locking it and the n coming to a stop right? and is it only safe to lock when there is no slip in the Tork Converter?

    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     
  16. HARRYS81

    HARRYS81 Registered Member

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    "TorkDSR"
    Do ya still have that output shaft for the conversion??? Please let me know i'm desperate!!! All i've been trying to do is get this truck running again, so i can go WHEELIN' !!!!
     
  17. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    hold on ill look


    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     
  18. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    yeah i have it, 27 spline, mint condition(not that i can tell) looks VERY EXPENSIVE. hehehe[​IMG][​IMG] out of a pre 86 so the oil hole on the shaft isnt in the optimal position, but hey, does that matter.

    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     
  19. HARRYS81

    HARRYS81 Registered Member

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    so the oil hole on the shaft isnt in the optimal position, but hey, does that matter.
    What does that mean???????????? i don't want to break anything.. and uh,,,,, how much $$$$???
     
  20. TorkDSR

    TorkDSR 1/2 ton status

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    after 86 they moved the oil hole to the neck of the stepdown instead of on the end, its a 1/16 of an inch different nd i shyldnt hve even brought it up, just being funny[​IMG] I have no what its worth or how much to ship so give me a figure and ill check on shipping to where you are.

    beligerence doesn't justify intelligence.
    <font color=blue>wheelers hate posers.</font color=blue>
    <font color=red>79k15/400/700r4/205/38.5</font color=red>
     

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