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unjust profiling?? yeah, no patterns here....

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by 55Willy, Jun 7, 2002.

  1. 55Willy

    55Willy 3/4 ton status

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    If you have traveled much since 9/11 you have removed your shoes, had fingernail clippers confiscated and been patted down many times. It's getting a little old for frequent flyers.


    To insure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport screeners will not be allowed to PROFILE people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal-of-Honor winning former Governors.

    Let's pause a moment and take the following test:

    In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
    (a)Olga Corbutt
    (b)Sitting Bull
    (c)Arnold Schwartzeneger
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
    (a)Lost Norwegians
    (b)Elvis
    (c)A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
    (a)John Dillinger
    (b)The King of Sweden
    (c)The Boy Scouts
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
    (a)A pizza delivery boy
    (b)Pee Wee Herman
    (c)Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
    (a)The Smurfs
    (b)Davy Jones
    (c)The Little Mermaid
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by: (a)Captain Kid
    (b)Charles Lindberg
    (c)Mother Teresa
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
    (a)Scooby Doo
    (b)The Tooth Fairy
    (c)Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train job
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
    (a)Richard Simmons
    (b)Grandma Moses
    (c)Michael Jordan
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
    (a)Mr. Rogers
    (b)Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
    (c)The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
    (a)Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
    (b)The Supreme Court of Florida
    (c)Mr. Bean
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
    (a)Enron
    (b)The Lutheran Church
    (c)The NFL
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
    (a)Bonny and Clyde
    (b)Captain Kangaroo
    (c)Billy Graham
    (d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    Hmmm... NOPE!.........No patterns anywhere to justify any sort of PROFILING!!!!!!
     
  2. ChevyCaGal

    ChevyCaGal 3/4 ton status

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    Airport security is a joke... I got my Leatherman on the plane coming home from San Diego in December. Nice sharp 2" blade on it along with other things, I also brought a full bottle of wine on the plane and an empty bottle or Corona when they said no glass... glad to know they caught those. The guy that searched me last month at LAX, I could have snuck a tank on the plane.... the guy in front of me he said no bottles are allowed on the plane (seems like a pattern I am seeing with bottles). Then I opened my bag with a bottle of vanilla from Mexico in it and he let me go... my friends 7 year old had sisscors and took them on the plane. I swear those guys are idiots... I hope that someday it's changed so pilots can carry weapons cuz if I can get crap on board the plane at this point then any terrorist can. If they do succeed I'd like to know they'd eat a bullet if they went for the cockpit.....
     
  3. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    freakin ACLU is suing a few airlines for discrimination for pulling mid-easterners outta line.
    makes me wanna crush some larynxes.
     
  4. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    I think if they want to get wepons on airplains, they'll get them on. Are they searching the crews that clean the plains between flights ???? Or baggage handlers ???? How about the security personal ???? It's sad to say, but alot of people can be bought off !!!!!!
     
  5. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    I found this post to be interesting, thought provoking, well constructed and accurate.

    I also believe that profiling is an excellent method of narrowing your search for answers (and suspects).

    Unfortunately, we live in a country that has a large number of people who never venture too far out of their own little neighborhood and don't seem to understand that there are some really bad people out there. Many of bad guys are members of specific groups and/or organizations that encourage destructive and subversive actions.

    Some examples:
    <ul type="square">[1] Nazi's
    [2] KKK
    [3] Taliban
    [4] Palestinian Nutball suicide bombers
    [5] Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
    [/list]
    Now, profiling is the best way to narrow down your list of possible bad guys. For example, if you have a room full of 100 people and you get a phone call that says that one of them is a KKK member who wants to kill a bunch of folks you could immediately (by profiling) narrow your search to only the white (or Anglo, Caucasian or any other description you want to use) people, which would probably represent only a fraction of the initial 100 folks. You aren't going to line up all the white guys and perform a strip search are you? Of course not, but you will pay extra close attention to any white guy you might see standing in a corner with a sneaky look on his face trying to slide a small box under a table with his foot. That makes sense, right?

    So why do people get all bent out of shape when they talk about looking carefully at Muslim males (who could possibly be extremists) mostly between the ages of 17 and 40? Nobody is talking about locking them all up in a dark cell until they confess, but I do believe it is important to stay alert and act intelligently when it comes to security.

    I currently have friends/acquaintances that are Muslim. Some of these folks match the profile of Muslim male (not extremists) mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 perfectly. Do I treat them differently since 9/11? No. Did I carefully consider our friendship and experiences to make a determination as to whether or not they could possibly be involved with terrorism? You bet I did and it took me less than 1 second to conclude that they are not and could not ever be involved in any type of terrorism. One of them baby-sits my son occasionally (I am VERY particular about who I leave my son with) and he understands that he may be put under greater scrutiny because of the way he looks. Just like a 21 year old who gets carded every time he goes to buy some beer.

    Is it right? Is it wrong? I don't know or care, I just want to keep my family safe.

    Is it prudent, smart and necessary? ABSOLUTELY!


    Whew, I feel better now! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
    Let's go wheeling!
     
  6. AGM73k5

    AGM73k5 1/2 ton status

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    List seems to ignore a few things:
    1) Islam is a religion - not a look
    2) Numerous terrorist acts attempted by non-Muslims
    3) Many of the alleged 9-11 hijackers received special security screening
    4) Anyone could inadvertently provide a weapon to an otherwise unarmed terrorist
    5) The failure of intelligence agencies in 9-11 was not that they didn't have the information or the time to stop it, but rather they failed to analyze the information they had and act accordingly
     
  7. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


    List seems to ignore a couple things:
    1) Islam is a religion - not a look
    2) Numerous terrorist acts attempted by non-Muslims
    3) Many of the alleged 9-11 hijackers received special security screening
    4) Anyone could inadvertently provide a weapon to an otherwise unarmed terrorist
    5) The failure of intelligence agencies in 9-11 was not that they didn't have the information or the time to stop it, but rather they failed to analyze the information they had and act accordingly

    <hr></blockquote>

    With all due respect, these things were not ignored they are just not relavent.



    <font color=blue>1) Islam is a religion - not a look </font color=blue> - Most (granted, not all) Muslims are from a similar ethnic/ racial background. ALL of the terrorist involved in 9/11, WTC bombing in 1993, Marine barracks, etc. were from similar ethnic/ racial and extremist Muslim backgrounds. This is not to say that all Muslims are terrorists, that would be silly. Just because there are KKK members who are (or at least claim to be) Christians doesn't mean that all Christians are KKK members. The KKK is a bunch of extremist nutballs who think they are doing Gods work. Just like these terrorists are extremist Nutballs.

    <font color=blue>2) Numerous terrorist acts attempted by non-Muslims</font color=blue> - Most of the terrorist acts against the United States in the past 20+ years have been performed by Muslim extremists. I would be very interested to hear of your "numerous" examples.

    <font color=blue> 3) Many of the alleged 9-11 hijackers received special security screening.</font color=blue> So what? They took control of the aircraft with very simple weapons. Given a nice sturdy fountain pen (which anyone can bring onto an aircraft) you could accomplish much the same thing as the Nutballs on 9/11 did.

    <font color=blue>4) Anyone could inadvertently provide a weapon to an otherwise unarmed terrorist.</font color=blue> Again, So what? See above.

    <font color=blue>5) The failure of intelligence agencies in 9-11 was not that they didn't have the information or the time to stop it, but rather they failed to analyze the information they had and act accordingly.</font color=blue> Hmmm, That statement presents an exellent opportunity for another discussion. This post isn't about whose fault it was, it's about what to do to prevent it from happening again.
     
  8. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    I don't mean to argue, I agree with profiling to a degree.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    you could immediately (by profiling) narrow your search to only the white (or Anglo, Caucasian or any other description you want to use) people, which would probably represent only a fraction of the initial 100 folks.

    <hr></blockquote>
    Thats' what we need to watch out for, though. That we don't get so comfy thinking it's only gonna be a mid-eastern-descent person that would want to harm us, and ignore the thousands of Muslim white americans that look no different than you or I, or Tom Dick or Harry. My point is, if Rajad Mohabbar is scrutinized as he gets on the plane, while John Walker is not, then John walker simply needs to carry the scissors or box-cutters and pass them to Rajad when they're airborne. John Walker being the american involved with Al-Quada. There's also the other guy that had the bomb in his shoe, I can't remember his name. Personally, I would profile him 'cause he looks like a mental case, but point is he doesn't fit the "profile".

    Oklahoma City was not Muslim extremist. Niether was the Olympic thing way back. There's plenty of terrorism in the US, I think the acts committed by Muslim extremists probably get more attention in light of 9/11.

    I'm not against profiling, but on the side of considering all the facts. Profiling is fine with me, as long as they don't over-focus on the profile and let other things slide.
     
  9. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    ...as long as they don't over-focus on the profile and let other things slide.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Excellent point !

    Profiling is not THE answer to finding suspects. It's only one of many tools that must be be used.
     
  10. BlazerGuy

    BlazerGuy 3/4 ton status

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    Airport security is a joke. I boarded a United flight last week bound for San Francisco with a 4" fixed blade hunting knife. I had no idea it was in my backpack since the last time I used the pack was on a hunting trip. I just forgot about it since it was in a hidden pocket. Good thing SFO has better security than Austin because they confiscated it.
     
  11. AGM73k5

    AGM73k5 1/2 ton status

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    I like the use of blue /forums/images/icons/smile.gif - I may have to start doing it to, but for now I'll keep it simple.

    &gt;Most (granted, not all) Muslims are from a similar ethnic/ racial background.
    My understanding of profiling is that it would be based on looks. There isn't a Muslim "look" that I am aware of. I'm not objecting to profiling, but rather the idea that one can discern a Muslim from a group of Africans, Chechens, Yugoslavians, South Asians, etc. If you have a good way of visually determining who is a Muslim extremist, or even just a Muslim, I'd be glad to hear it. Right now, I can't figure out how it's possible.

    &gt;Most of the terrorist acts against the United States in the past 20+ years have been performed by Muslim extremists.

    "Most." So that leaves the remainder to be by non-Muslims. OKC, Irv Rubin and the JDL, ALF/ELF, the various militia/neo-nazi groups, and anarchist/anticorporatists - I can probably find more. As far as I know most of the acts that have been large and carried out have been by Muslim extremists. My statement was not that others had done so on the same level, or had been able to complete their acts. Muslim extremists may have a monopoly on recent large-scale terrorist acts but they are not the only terrorists acting against the USA.

    &gt;So what? They took control of the aircraft with very simple weapons.
    &gt;Again, So what? See above.

    Profiling, as I understand it, relates to singling out certain people for scrutiny - Not simply refusing service to those who fit a certain profile. Because it's not possible, based on the information airports have, to discern an extremist Muslim from the general population - the focus has to be on keeping potential weapons off the plane. IMHO pilots won't be opening the cockpit doors to terrorists anytime soon - so the threat to commercial aircraft lies in explosives.

    &gt;Hmmm, That statement presents an exellent opportunity for another discussion. This post isn't about whose fault it was, it's about what to do to prevent it from happening again.

    I apologize. I assigned blame to Intel. I don't know that it is their fault. I do know, as much as one can trust the news, that the intel. agencies had information. That information wasn't acted on or wasn't acted on enough. I believe that the key to preventing terrorism lies with intelligence, rather than profiling. Profiling only works so far as the terrorists fit the profile.

    EditFor: Added the below-
    When I read the first post of this thread I read it to be saying that people who don't fit the profile should be ignored. I may have been reading more into it than was there. I don't mind profiling, so long as it is effective and is not the only tool used. Screening every airline passenger thoroughly makes sense to me - not just the ones that fit a profile.
     
  12. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    One thing that I think we can all agree on is the fact that we live in a potentially dangerous world and we need to pay attention.

    Our national security relies on our elected officials to provide an infrastructure capable of providing a secure environment for us. It all starts when you check the box on your ballot ... everyone over 18 here votes, right?? RIGHT??

    /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
    Now can we go wheeling???
     
  13. muddin4fun

    muddin4fun 3/4 ton status

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    [rant]
    I think people need to quit letting someone else handle it. I think that if people knew that Joe Blow citizen is going to kick your ass if you get out of line...there would be a lot less people out of line!!! But no....most citizens want to be lazy or selfish and let the "authorities" handle it. Well you know what? The authorities are obviously not doing the job.
    Wouldn't you definatly think twice about screwing up if you knew that the 100 people who are standing around you are willing to mess you up if you act like an idiot?[/rant]
     
  14. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    LET'S ROLL !
     
  15. AGM73k5

    AGM73k5 1/2 ton status

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    <font color=blue>One thing that I think we can all agree on is the fact that we live in a potentially dangerous world and we need to pay attention. </font color=blue>

    Yes.


    <font color=blue>Our national security relies on our elected officials to provide an infrastructure capable of providing a secure environment for us. </font color=blue>

    Yes.

    <font color=blue>
    Now can we go wheeling???
    </font color=blue>

    YES!!! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  16. riz

    riz 3/4 ton status

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    <font color=blue> I totally agree ........... Why are stereotypes there ? Because they're mostly true ! Note the key word there .... MOSTLY ....... Still, if you think about it.....It's good to do .... If not, we're setting ourselves up for the same type of acts later on !
     
  17. riz

    riz 3/4 ton status

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    <font color=blue> One more thing ! ............. Where's the pot head ? Just kidding ... LOL!
     
  18. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    This has some good points -

    1. I am a frequent flyer - and it is just plain stupid what the security searches are like now - can't tell you how many times I see anglo MOMS with 3 kids get pulled out of line to be checked.............old ladies in wheelchairs............random is stupid and only is done to appear politically correct. What a waste of money, time and resources. No way anyone will sway me on this one.
    2. Profiling can be done the right way. I work with a lot of guys in my company who are of Indian descent, and their words, not mine, "we don't mind being checked, if I were in an American's point of view I'd check me too". They are good hard working people who understand what reality is in this 'new world' that has come about since 9/11. In reality, it has been a new world longer, but 9/11 actually woke us up, if only for a little while. I see apathy creeping back into America.........and I don't like it. My buddy was able to carry his full size Leatherman on a plane............with about a 4" knife attachment. Why? Because it looks like a pair of pliers...........
    3. I don't know what this profile should 'say' but we all know what to watch for.............and it's not a 6'4", blond hair, blue eye Alaska Airlines MVP member who knows most of the Portland gate agents..............but somehow I get checked what seems like more than my fair share. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

    Oh well, still my favorite country...............even with all its' negatives.
     
  19. Den

    Den 1/2 ton status

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    I just know Im glad they didnt start profiling after the OKC bombing... gee... a white boy from the heartland of america... crew cut....military background...... liked to hunt.... damn Im SO busted!!!!LOL Just trying to make a point...a$$holes and crazy folks come in all colors and religions......
     
  20. potato76

    potato76 1/2 ton status

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    I think its crap because my whole name is Ja'misle Stringer.When i got onto a plane i was searched for so long at the security that i almost missed my flight.IM NOT EVEN MUSLIM!!!! I could be mistook for one because of the color of my skin. But its dumb.Check everyone!! plain and simple.Thats what they do in other countries.Why cant we do it here.
     

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