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Upgrades for Dmax vs. Cummins!

Discussion in 'Tow & Trailer' started by rjfguitar, Aug 8, 2004.

  1. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Regarding to what BadDog, myself, and blueblazer62 were hijacking about in another thread. Also I hope a few people will find this interesting since I have seen some interest in aftermarket diesel power.
    Here is a link to the performance modules for the Dmax from ATS

    http://www.atsdiesel.com/products/products-gm-engine-powermodule.asp
    The Xcelerator programmer gives an extra 205 RWHP and 400 ft lbs of torque on 2001-2004 non LLY Dmax motors.

    Here is a link for the performance modules for the cummins from ATS.
    diesel. http://www.atsdiesel.com/products/products-dodge-engine-powermodule.asp
    The CST module delivers 180HP and a whopping 550ft lbs of torque over stock on 2003+ common rail injected cummins motors.

    Our "debate" was which truck could make more power with $1000 and only be "bolt" on.

    Both the largest programmers are under a grand and bring 200-2003 Dmax to 505HP/920ftlbs. A 2003 dodge(not the 600 cummins to make it fair) would be at 485HP/1105ftlbs. Now this is all in theory to stay under $1K because obviously a strait through exhaust system and upgraded intake system would be required to actually make that much power and for it to be streetable. Not to mention that neither the stock Allison or new 48RE could handle that much power stock. Also CST says that both an injector and turbo upgrade would be needed to actually obtain that highest power level withthe CTD.

    If anyone is interested, click on the "Race Footage" link, scroll down to the pullers, and see that the duramax couldn't pull as far as the dodge CTD's. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    In case anyone is wondering why I didn't include the Ford PS is because from what I saw the aftermarket power levels aren't even worth mentioning vs. the Dmax and cummins. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  2. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Sounds about right to me. For more info including dyno graphs and such, interested parties can read the forums at:

    CTD Forums

    DMax Forums

    The only thing I can think to add is that (from what I've read) the CTD makes a much more spiked torque curve requiring more attention to rpms and (according to reports) at least a 6 speed manual to keep it happy and at max output for towing. The auto guys seem to report problems with the reduced gear options not being able to keep the CTD in the "sweet spot". The much broader, flatter, if somewhat lower torque curve of the DMax allows the 5 speed Alli as well as the 6 speed manual much more latitude without rolling off the sides of the torque peek. This is based on reading various forums (not just pro DMax) as well talking to people I know running "upgraded" CTD Dodges.

    [Edit] Just noticed the part about the pullers. While it is true that the CTD currently dominates the pulling and DHRA events, the DMax is gaining. General consensus among both (most) CTD and DMax proponents is that the DMax will likely be much more competitive when the power market is more mature with things like the up and coming turbo from ATS and injectors from several sources. Also, these are not in any way representative of the "under a grand" crowd and the DMaxes are running nothing more than chip/exhaust/intake/trans upgrades against CTDs with all that plus injectors/o-ringed heads/upgraded (or multiple) turbos/pumps/and other "tricks" not yet available for the DMax.

    And another thought on trans. The manuals also can't hold up to "upgraded" diesels in any camp. With "dual mass" fly wheels coming apart, weak pressure plates, sheared flywheels, broken intermediate shafts, and other problems common among the high power crowd of phallic junkies (how is that for a pro auto jab?). /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif
     
  3. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Also, for completeness, here is the original hijacked (sorry about that) thread.

    Hijack!

    Also, to continue the discussion that I didn't answer to avoid further hijack...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Whats with the 600+ and 1100+ figures, doesnt he know exact numbers?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    From what I have gathered those vague numbers are due to inconsistencies between dyno pulls based on the tuning of the "drugs". Rather than grab a single high aberration number, he just posted a good indicator number. Somewhere in there is a set of dyno reports where they were running those test along with graphs and all. I remember seeing them, but couldn't find them. Maybe it was on "the page" instead? <shrug> Someone with more interest than me will have to dig them out, I loose interest in searching most things like this after the first few attempts...

    As for not caring for the electronic engines, I gotta disagree. I've built performance engines of varying degrees ranging from 4 cylinder 2300s up to 340 Magnums, L82s, various 454s and 455 Pontiacs and so on. But I *LOVE* that I can plug in a chip on my DMax, which basically just removes the "detune" the factory forced on us to deal with insurance and warranty liabilities and get 400+ rwhp and 700+ ft/lbs (more depending on how much you want to risk cooking the trans). It's fun both ways, but if I had to do it the hard way for my tow rig and DD, NO WAY would I have ever had this much fun with it! But I guess I'm just getting old and lazy. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  4. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]
    As for not caring for the electronic engines, I gotta disagree. I've built performance engines of varying degrees ranging from 4 cylinder 2300s up to 340 Magnums, L82s, various 454s and 455 Pontiacs and so on. But I *LOVE* that I can plug in a chip on my DMax, which basically just removes the "detune" the factory forced on us to deal with insurance and warranty liabilities and get 400+ rwhp and 700+ ft/lbs (more depending on how much you want to risk cooking the trans). It's fun both ways, but if I had to do it the hard way for my tow rig and DD, NO WAY would I have ever had this much fun with it! But I guess I'm just getting old and lazy. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I agree with you badDog, I just helped a friend of mine install an 80HP programmer on his Harley edition Ford Super duty and it took about 10 minutes, literally. I felt stupid for spending $3K on a gasser not to mention all the work involved vs. poping in a new programmer that takes 10 mins and costs $600. /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif
     
  5. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]

    And another thought on trans. The manuals also can't hold up to "upgraded" diesels in any camp. With "dual mass" fly wheels coming apart, weak pressure plates, sheared flywheels, broken intermediate shafts, and other problems common among the high power crowd of phallic junkies (how is that for a pro auto jab?). /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I should have mentioned that too. But in defense it's the clutches that cant handle the power. I have heard power 4 and 5 on the Edge Juice comp box will spin the clutch right off the flywheel. And thats only roughly 900 ft lbs("only" thats funny /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif). I am still not sure if I want a manual 6 spd or the 47RE when I buy an 01-02 Dodge CTD soon. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif I like the idea of the auto but don't like that a complete level 5 ATS 47RE tranny is $5K. On the other hand I will need a new clutch with the 6 spd but thats only about $1300, then there's the annoyance of shifting and I talk on the cell half the time I drive. /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  6. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Don't forget the syncros and that intermediate shaft nut. My neighbor had his torn down repeatedly for both, including one "nut problem" after the "permanent" fix for the nut which came after the previous "fix" for the nut... Don't remember the details, but he was so fed up the last time when the 3rd gear (?) synchro went out AGAIN that he sold the truck without fixing it... That's one CTD owner that will never drive another CTD...
     
  7. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Uh, not sure on the duramax but on the ctd your not going to make the power on that TST system and be streetable without changing turbo's. The stock turbo is just too small and the thing gets too hot.

    I am going to go with the TST box, it is THE best box out right now and will be the best box for a while. It has horsepower adjustability from 0-10 and torque 0-10. You can set it on 4 hp and 6 tq or whatever you want. But anything over 4/3 is too much for a stock turbo. To use level 10 you need twins, injectors, o-ringed head, porting, head studs, etc. TST boxes are capable of over 1500 ft/lbs with an engine built to handle it and stacked witha pressure box. I'll be running on 3/3 all the time until I can get a larger single turbo, either a B2 or an Aurora or a Jammer, then I could probably get into the 4 range towing and the 5 range empty but I dunno. Just have to keep my eyes plastered on the EGT gauge.

    You can't just throw a big box at these things and all is well. The first thing you should buy is EGT and boost gauges. Definately don't want to go over 50psi on the stock head bolts and gasket. Also don't want to go over 1300-1400* pre-turbo. Even a puny Edge box will put your EGT's over that on it's highest level and it's a disaster waiting to happen towing. If your bombing without gauges to watch everything your nuts.

    As far as your torque numbers your posting for the CTD, you should stop just adding the #'s up you see on website to the stock numbers, doesn't quite work like that... To reach 900 ft/lbs you are going to be running injectors, turbo, possibly a couple stacked boxes, etc.

    Stock clutch will only hold about 600 ft/lbs at most and would still probably be slipping. The HO 600's are slipping clutches with very minor upgrades. A Con-OFE clutch is the only way to go.
     
  8. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    I agree on the guages. That's one of the things that sent me to the Juice/Attitude. Not only does the Attitude show me boost, EGT, and a whole boat load of other paramters as/when I choose, but it can be set (as is mine) to defuel when temps exceed 1300*f (pre turbo) or if it detects trans slippage. I can also control whether it defuels between shifts, just locked shifts, or not at all (only for built trannys). Funny thing, the defuel shifts makes the Alli look and act like a manual with a VERY good driver rowing through the gears. And it lets me run a higher power level without (hopefully) hurting the tranny. In any case, anyone looking to do something like this should do lots of research before taking the plunge, or you'll wind up with a very expensive piece of slag...

    [ QUOTE ]
    To reach 900 ft/lbs you are going to be running injectors, turbo, possibly a couple stacked boxes, etc.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Not true of the DMax. If I'm not off my rocker, actual dyno runs with a single box have crossed 900 ft/lbs on the DMax with the latest VA box and another I don't recall the name of off the top of my head. And I think Kennedy is running a single box while making "1100+" on a stock DMax long block with stock turbo. But I do agree with that about the CTD, which is basically what I said back on the hijacked post...
     
  9. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    I agree and disagree.

    I agree that those higher power numbers are unatainable without a different turbo and injectors.

    I do disagree that You can make the advertised power from a box like the Edge comp with only a good exhaust and intake... From what I have heard and read.

    I figured that 350HP and 800 ft lbs should be had with the Edje Juice comp box, 5" exhaust, and a good intake. Obviously not at extended periods of time on level 4&5.
     
  10. BlueBlazer

    BlueBlazer 1/2 ton status

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    I highly doubt that the Dmax turbo and injecors are so much better that they dont need changed at really high power levels. The injectors are even made by the same manufacturer as the Cummins. Are you sure the Dmax guys just dont care as much about the limits of their engine in an attempt to outdo the Cummins guys?
     
  11. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Hmmm, really can't answer that. I know several, like Mike Tomack with his '02, race their modified DMax "tow rigs" almost ever week, and Mike runs the pulls too. Cliff (?) at ATS also runs a nice DMax with no longevity problems. And as for injectors and turbos, the first "big" injectors first became available for the DMax in limitied quantities about 2-3 months ago, and other than some cobbled "experimental" turbo setups, there is nothing yet available (though ATS is supposedly close). Kennedy has done some great things to his '02 which has at one time or another run all sorts of boxes, exhausts, etc and made hundreds of dyno pulls (and quarter mile runs to I think?) while show boating and DD for his business since new. <shrug>

    I have seen no evidence of people killing their DMax with hipo upgrades. Allis, yes, DMax, no. In fact, I can't remember but one DMax that died from racing, and that was the pushed to the limit standard cab that was trying to break under 12 (IIRC). I'm sure there are others, but my point is that it's not been a huge deal. Even those "pathetic" aluminum heads all the Dodge and Ford boys laughed about seem able to handle higher power output (beyond even where the CTD requires o-rings) without failure. The only head issues I recall were in relatively normal duty tow rigs that started leaking coolant or such, and no higher incidence than you would expect out of any stock gasser or diesel... I also wouldn't be surprised if the new VVT turbo'd LLY DMax went even further (or at least faster with a better torque curve) on "just a chip" than the LB7s like mine did.
     
  12. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    And I'll repeat what I said in the other thread (for those who don't read it). Other than my relatively small effort, everything I've said comes from reading the associated forums while researching my own decisions. I may get the names mixed up, or a bit off on the numbers due to faulty memory, but you can check my statements if you like by reading the boards I've indicated. There is lots of bad info on the 'net, and I hope I've not adopted any as "fact", but "your mileage may vary"... Please, don't trust what I'm saying. I'm no expert. If you really care, and are not reading this just for entertainment, do like I did and put in the research before making your choices… Don't listen to any one person regardless of who they are or what you think their motives are! If it's worthwhile, you will almost always find corroborating information for anything other than absolute cutting-edge. And if you're on the cutting-edge, you generally have the knowledge or access that supports the choices anyway without needing to look in the 'net forums…
     
  13. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]
    In fact, I can't remember but one DMax that died from racing, and that was the pushed to the limit standard cab that was trying to break under 12 (IIRC).

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Well that sort of sums it up in a nut shell about the Dmax's durability in the bottom end. If it blew apart trying to break 12's than it's bottom end is significantly weaker than the cummins because the Dodges are reaching very low 11's without issues, as long as the head is o-ringed. But like you said I'm no expert either. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  14. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I do disagree that You can make the advertised power from a box like the Edge comp with only a good exhaust and intake... From what I have heard and read.

    I figured that 350HP and 800 ft lbs should be had with the Edje Juice comp box, 5" exhaust, and a good intake. Obviously not at extended periods of time on level 4&5.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well let me clear up what I meant. Yes you can throw on a box and push out those numbers on the dyno. But that is only a few seconds/minutes. To run them long term, especially when towing, you need serious upgrades. EGT's will shoot through the roof when towing with an Edge box on 4-5-6 or a TST above 3/3 with stock turbo. A guy on TDR ran the dyno with his TST with an AFE PG7 intake and 4" exhaust and stock turbo and hit around 1100 ft/lbs but also hit about 1600 egt's within seconds and shut it down.

    Interesting reading:

    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244825&highlight=turbo
     
  15. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Hmm, I forgot to mention, the guy doing the run blamed it on improper mix of the "drugs". Too much N20 or propane or whatever, don't know which. Total hear-say (but that's all I've got to go on here) but what I heard was that he specifically said it was not a weakness in the bottom end, but him screwing up that caused (IIRC) a cooked piston to start the carnage. But I should stay out of it beyond that. I've already likely confused some of the facts since this is beyond my level of interest other than "entertainment" value, and as such, I don't really study and dwell on it enough to be sure I've got it straight after all these months...

    Even if it does take stronger rods or whatever, the fact that it can get that far without nearly the mods necessary to get a CTD there blows me away. I'll never argue that the CTD doesn't have the strongest bottom end, I think it unquestionably does. And I won't argue that the CTD will likely retain it's crown as the reigning diesel light truck for pulling and DHRA. All I'm trying to say is that, for the reasonable money, and the vast majority of people towing, playing around, and DD a light diesel truck, the DMax Alli (or perhaps the 6 speed manual if that's your thing) can not be beat IMO. The high dollar, highly modified Keith Black Hemi's and what not (yeah, I know he wasn't the end all be all, just a visible name) ruled the strips for years, but that didn't mean the LS6 and it's kin weren't killer options for *most* people. And those running 426 Hemi/Wedge Mopars liked to tout the engine's success on the track, but frankly, most got their butts handed to them for anything "main stream". I think this is (or will be) the same thing…
     
  16. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    I know for a fact that the Dmax is faster than the CTD stock. It simply winds up faster being a V8 and has a higher rev limiter. If chevy had a strait axle under them I would probably be looking for a chevy Dmax than the right Dodge CTD. Also I wrench on semis on a fairly regular basis with our business and feel more "compfortable" with the cummins probably because of the time I spend working on it's larger brothers. Like you said, I am also not interested in running those hi HP numbers because it is too expensive to do and compromises daily use no matter if it's a CTD, Dmax, or PS.
     
  17. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    I do disagree that You can make the advertised power from a box like the Edge comp with only a good exhaust and intake... From what I have heard and read.

    I figured that 350HP and 800 ft lbs should be had with the Edje Juice comp box, 5" exhaust, and a good intake. Obviously not at extended periods of time on level 4&5.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well let me clear up what I meant. Yes you can throw on a box and push out those numbers on the dyno. But that is only a few seconds/minutes. To run them long term, especially when towing, you need serious upgrades. EGT's will shoot through the roof when towing with an Edge box on 4-5-6 or a TST above 3/3 with stock turbo. A guy on TDR ran the dyno with his TST with an AFE PG7 intake and 4" exhaust and stock turbo and hit around 1100 ft/lbs but also hit about 1600 egt's within seconds and shut it down.

    Interesting reading:

    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244825&highlight=turbo

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Our truck mechanic just got done putting a new head on a 12v cummins because the guy had the pump turned way up, injectors, and only an hx35 turbo. He said the pyro hit 2000* during the sled pulls which is why the gasket blew and cracked the head.

    As far as level 4&5(there is no 6) on the edge, yes only a short period is allowed at those 2 power settings but from what I have been told up to level 3 is great on a continual basis towing, pulling, etc. But seriously with a 2001 CTD on level 3 that would put you up to around 300-325HP and 700ftlbs, thats sufficient anyway for the usuall towing trip, I would imagine. The diesels that were available 10 years ago had adequit power to pull the usual K5 on a trailer or what not and they were no where near 300/700. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
     
  18. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    This thread got me to go back today and do some "updating". Look what I found...
    [ QUOTE ]
    YAHOO!!! 793/1382 and still climbing when I cut it off! I had a spike of 1502! Dodge guys were really pissed. They kept on going in the parking lot and changing injectors. None of the twin powered dodges running N2O except for Richard maddog Maddox could get over 600hp. Richard got up to 780 and blew the intercooler tube off, weld and all! He would have stomped me good if it would have held together. My run will be posted soon. Off to the track to do some damage tomorrow! Thanks every body. ATS crew had a big powwow after the run. Boy that truck is intimidating on full power runs. I got out of it still shaking nevously. Ice was flying out around the hood (it was open) from the manifold, with the water/meth and N2O going in. I though I had a monster. It really is! I hope the tranny holds together for the races.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    And
    [ QUOTE ]
    No secrets. Every one knows what I was running. Best of all, STOCK TURBO, and INJECTS. I through at it every thing but the kitchen sink. I will post it all for you after the races. Clint didn't believe it so they did a base run. It came out 15hp lower than my normal. Just #2 I pulled 472/1017. 5350 foot elavation. EGTs peaked at 1300 on the big run.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Full thread.
     
  19. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Impressive. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  20. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Here is another pretty good indicator I just stumbled on. Sums up my impressions almost to a "T", and it comes from GatorRam, a CTD advocate talking about up-n-coming stuff for the DMax and how the DMax stacks up against the CTD. He's comparing his bad boy CTD against an almost as fast DMax of his father's that was built at "quarter of the money"...

    [ QUOTE ]
    No doubt.....but if the fuel system and most of all the rest of the engine can hold out I think the Duramax will be a handfull. I know that there is an issue with the rods among other things, and that has been handled by some brave individuals but at a rather high cost. To me it is so awesome that such a large increase in power can be made on the DMax with a "minimal" amount of $$$ but it has to come to a halt somewhere. Us "not-so-lucky types "found this first in our auto trannys and injectors and twin setups and so on and so on. Trust me, it kills me that my dads DMax can come pretty close to whippin' mine while using a quarter of the money. Anyway, I think that there are some really big things in store for the Duramax but you will have to shell out some cash to get there. Also, you guys have the pain in the a$$ of fitting a bigger turbo or for that matter TURBO'S in that engine bay where as we can fairly just do what we want on the passenger side of the engine. Please don't take my posts as trash talking but I have been watching these posts for a while and just like the TDR, DTR,and the DTR there are always people that want to stir the pot instead of improve the recipe.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry for all the quotes and posts, just wanted to show some of the stuff that went into my rather biased opinions. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Full post here.

    Edit:
    BTW, I don't recall seeing the posts about an "issue with the rods", but I don't follow that closely, I guess it's in there somewhere. It's likely that it became an issue in the time since I quit really paying much attention to the extreme high end of the performance scene.
     

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