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Waiting too long to shoot,, the fatal error

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by camiswelding, Feb 17, 2007.

  1. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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  2. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    damn thats was nuts
     
  3. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    What happened to the officer?
     
  4. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Umm, no I wouldn't. Seen the video before, pretty damn chilling. The one thing that really disturbed me about this time I never noticed the last time was the lack of radio traffic.
     
  5. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    I would've shot that insane peice of crap in the back of the head the instant I saw he was going for a gun...
     
  6. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Sure............................................
     
  7. Cricket

    Cricket 3/4 ton status

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    It sounded like the deputy fired about the time Brannon kneeled down?

    Isn't it protocol to draw your weapon when a suspect goes back to their vehicle against your verbal order? It would help to have a little more insight, how much leeway do you really have in that situation?

    I would have assumed the minute he saw a weapon and his order to drop the weapon was refused he would have had the authority to shoot the man.
     
  8. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    That's really sad. The officer gave the guy one chance too many. Guess that just comes from being a decent human being and not some piece of social dirt bag.
    Pretty tragic.
     
  9. MattK

    MattK 1/2 ton status

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    Creepy video. I'm kinda thinkin it would have been better to use somethin non-lethal(OC, Taser, etc.) when that guy was jumpin around like a maniac telling the deputy to shoot him...especially when you consider him being by himself with this whacko.

    Regardless, it's a terrible loss.
     
  10. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    When someone starts getting real hinky like this guy, there better be guns clearing leather, ready to be put into action. The video is not real clear, but in most places, as soon as the officer realizes it's a gun and the officer shoots, it's a good shoot. Some places don't support their local law enforcement and they'll want the cops to wait until the suspect has clear possession of the weapon and is turning towards the officer with that weapon before the officers begin shooting.

    The real key in my mind is just how much of a tactical advantage does the officer have? I can speak a little from experience on this one as I had something sort of similar happen to me one early morning. Driver is still in the driver's seat and gets WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY hinky on me. Due to the area we were in, one mistake I made was not using all the light available to me, I did not have my spot or my take downs turned on. While it did not put me at a disadvantage, the advantage I did hold was not as great as it could have been for this. I could still make out the driver's arm, from my vantage point, due to his actions and positioning of the arm, I could safely say he was ****ing around with something in the back seat. Driver failed to comply with my commands to exit the vehicle. I already have one suspect out, have already recovered drug paraphenalia from him. One mistake I did make was my cover was 30 miles away. I was also having radio problems with dispatch, but I could have had another officer relay the message to dispatch to get me a unit from Kansas and I could have held my ground and kept my eyes on the suspects until I had backup.

    While I was not drawn down on the driver, I was at a ready position, my sidearm out and there's this zone that people have. I was in that zone. Would I call it fear? I don't know. Would I call if confidence? Maybe. The feeling that I had was the driver was going for a gun, I had a supreme position of tactical advantage. All I had to do was bring my sidearm up, get my picture and it was game on. The driver, if he was going for a gun, would have had to have performed at least a 270 degree turn, while seated in the seat, more than likely exit the car just to have a halfway decent shot at me. He had his back turned to me, I was outside of my car. I was already set in my mind that he was going for a gun and all I needed to see was some sort of an object that resembled a gun.

    After three commands, to my amazement, he exited the vehicle. I directed him to the trunk area of the car they were in and I made sure he didn't get hinky on me because as soon as he exited, chilling fact #1 came into view. Suspect had a holster on his belt, and due to his jacket, I could not see if there was anything in it. I quickly got him secured, patted him down, he was clear. I then approached the driver's side door and chilling fact #2 became reality, he was sitting on a locked and loaded, Beretta 9mm, which was sitting in the driver's seat.

    Numerous items of drug paraphernalia was recovered from the vehicle and just outside of the vehicle. All in all, I believe there were three firearms I seized from the vehicle.

    Some interesting notes to this episode is that this occurred at 0150 hours. The location was the parking lot of a rural truck stop several miles away from my house that I had just went to so I can make a routine pass before I called it a night. Neither suspect would admit to much of anything, except that the passenger stated he was a drug addict, which kind of ****ed with my head because he was not your stereotypical looking drug addict. He may not have had a clue on the intentions of the driver. The driver though was a different story. He would not say anything. All the facts led us to believe that the driver was getting ready to bring bad medicine to this little truck stop.

    I haven't thought about this incident for awhile. It's one of those things that we play over and over again in our heads. The whole time it was going down, I was clearly confident in my positioning and my training and experience that never at one point did I have a feeling that I was going to lose. That is one thing I don't like to think about anyway. I knew I would win and that was that. Although I had only been on the street for a little over a year, my background gave me the edge I needed. Now that is not to say that I did not make mistakes. I could have called for backup sooner. But in this area, I also don't have confidence in my communication system. I also do not have any confidence in the dispatcher that was on duty. I could have secured my suspects a little better than I did during all of this. The thing that helped out was the passenger never got squirrely with me. I'm led to believe that he was getting dragged into something, due to his addiction, that he did not want to be a part of. I could be wrong, as a good team of bad guys could have attempted to snatch away the advantage I had. The passenger was in prime position to attempt to draw my attention away from the driver onto him, he never did.

    But the situations also differ. This driver jumped out and started the hinky stuff way early. Unfortunately, we do not see exactly how the officer was responding. I remember hearing the ending of the story on this one, but I don't remember if the suspect was drunk, drugged, just plain crazy, or had successfully pulled all of this off with a sane mind. In a close end gunfight like this one, the officer definitely could have had a tactical advantage over the bad guy. A pistol can be put into play a lot faster than a rifle when things are close. The officer could have just setup behind a car door, gun drawn, have backup coming and just have kept his eyes on the suspect, ready for anything the suspect might have pulled and still be here today.

    Bad guys look for openings and get their advantages. We are supposed to practice officer safety tactics day in, day out. If the officer never presents an opening, then the bad guy doesn't have anything to play with. The mindset of both parties usually dictate who wins and who loses. There is one video out there that really brings a chill to me, I believe the incident occurred in Modesto a few years ago with the Marine deserter armed with an SKS. A quick check of the facts reveals that most of the biggest hell raisers (that guy, Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh and the UT shooter from the 60's) all have one thing in common and that is they received their training from the military. Now we are under constant bombardment of news stories on how gangs are sending members to enlist so they can receive that training, get out and go back and train their gangs. A quick check of law enforcement agency personnel in a lot of places reveals that law enforcement has gotten away from hiring military folks. The argument can easily be made that it's all apples and oranges. There is a lot of truth in that, but when it comes time to lay the chips on the table, some of that military training comes in real handy at times. West Hollywood is a glaring example of that.
     
  11. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    You have to remember that different agencies equip their officers in a different manner. Not all agencies carry Tasers, and some places, only the supervisor possesses one.
     
  12. Cricket

    Cricket 3/4 ton status

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    Thank you for such a well detailed reply, that makes the events much clearer in my mind. It's tough to make a judgement when you do not understand what it feels like to stand in those boots.

    From my own perspective it is easy to fire a weapon. But when there is a live human being in the sight how hard would that decision become when you have not killed before. I imagine that is covered in training but real life situations don't always mirror the classroom. I assume the military does their best to remove that hesitation from your mindset.

    Hmmm.... a lot to think about and learn from watching that video.
     
  13. MattK

    MattK 1/2 ton status

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    Yeah, I know Tasers are still not carried by most around here. Our dept. is currently in the policy developing stage for them. I work in the jail and carry OC. The officers carry it as well. We all had to get sprayed to carry it, and I can say I would have had trouble finding anything after taking a shot of that stuff:eek1:

    Of course if this guy was all hopped up on who knows what it may not have had an effect. It's just painful to watch it escalate out of control like that.
     
  14. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    The video is unclear on the officers fate. Was it actually fatal on his part?
     
  15. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    did the officer die? what happened to the scumbag? looks like he has a chance to escape
     
  16. stoney126

    stoney126 1/2 ton status

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    I have had a certain respect for our police force. But that video has taken it to another level. My hats off to you for having to possibly deal with that day in day out.
     
  17. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Ditto. I've done a lot of competition shooting 'under pressure' but I can't begin to imagine the pressure and anguish of being in that situation. Frightening to think (from my perspective) that almost any stop you make could turn out like that. Scary stuff.
     
  18. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    The Officer Down Page
     
  19. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    that sucks
     
  20. 79k20350

    79k20350 3/4 ton status

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    "Deputy Dinkheller is survived by his expectant wife and 22-month-old daughter. Deputy Dinkheller's son was born in early September 1998."

    :( That poor family
     

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