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We're ****ing the dog.

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by TSGB, Nov 26, 2005.

  1. TSGB

    TSGB 1 ton status

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    We were talking on Turkey day about GM closing plants, cutting manufacturing capabilities, and this trend in general. My uncle brought up the point that a lot of our sucess in WWII was due to our sheer manufacturing numbers. We may not have had the best tanks, but we had them out the ass. Tanks, Higgins boats, planes, and other equipment was produced in a large part by private industry switching from civilian production right over to wartime production. With outsourcing (another thread guys!), and lower industrial production capacities, how materially screwed are we when (sorry, IF) the next world war hits? Equipment, parts, firearms- I see all these being affected. Our equipment may be the best, but can we win the number game?
     
  2. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    The majority of the ship/tank etc producing capability we had at the end of the war was stuff we built because there was a war going on (either lend lease, or after dec 7th). There is no reason why we couldn't do the same thing again. In 1941 we didn't have hundreds of military production plants just sitting around waiting to be used. We converted some stuff (like car plants) but others we just built.

    The real key to the entire thing is this: so long as the US has the means to protect imports coming in and exports going out with our navy/airforce... we are fine. If we ever don't have that capability, or someone builds a better navy/airforce... look that **** out.

    j
     
  3. 89GMCSuburban

    89GMCSuburban 1/2 ton status

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    I wonder about this, too. It has been shown that if we didn't have the capacity that we did over Germany......Germany would still be the size of Europe...maybe even Russia as well.

    I don't know the numbers, but everything, and I mean everything, I have been touching and installing at work has been made somewhere other than the USA. It just gets me worried.
     
  4. boggerless

    boggerless 1 ton status Premium Member

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    the global economy will work for the manufactuers. the middle class will be gone.and all the peeps that think whew i'm glad i don't work at the big three. it will trickle down.if they don't work alot of us won't. :mad:
     
  5. Corey 78K5

    Corey 78K5 1 ton status

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    If GM would ****can their managment and design team they could probably get over this world of hurt they're in..................but no they're focking stupid.
     
  6. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

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    GM put "all their eggs in one basket" so to speak, riding the mid size SUV market into the ground. They built an inferior product and no real growing or sustainable market for it, and now they are paying the price. That, and the fact that the UAW demands bloated wages for basically unskilled labor, and you have a recipe for demise.

    John
     
  7. 89GMCSuburban

    89GMCSuburban 1/2 ton status

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    Mid size market? Mid size is the S10 Blazer and the Jimmy. They didn't put crap into those...that's why they only changed styles once in 22 years. The full-size market is where they put their money (Tahoe, Suburban) but that IS what's making them money right now. Without them, they'd be toast.
     
  8. pauly383

    pauly383 Daddy383 Staff Member Moderator

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    Thats what IS making them money .

    They could also make more money if a few more Camry , Altima , Sentra and Accord owners looked at Malibu's and Impala instead !
     
  9. 6.2puller

    6.2puller 1/2 ton status

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    I think you are missing the point. If all the willys cars were being produced overseas we wouldn't have had a willys plant to make Jeeps for WWII.

    If everything is being manufactured oversease today (and we aren't far from it ) what exact kind of places are going to switch over to build equipment should a war begin?

    Probably why this thing in Iraq costs so many billion a day. We have to pay some dude in Schwedlanca to make the pcs to fix everything that gets blown up. :mad:
     
  10. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Thats why...

    Thats why we should have always bought american made goods..even if they are sometimes inferior quality than others made eselwhere,or others are cheaper to buy....I used to wonder why my father hated seeing anyone buy any foriegn cars..now I'm seeing why..

    I can see us now,fighting our next war,with rifles that have "Made In China" stamped on them...best pray its not CHINA that we go to war with,in that case.. :yikes: :angry1: --thank Clinton for Nafta,and G.W. Bush Sr. for the "new world order"..the beginning of our end if you ask me.. :( ..

    Its only a matter of time now..once our factories fall into disrepair from being abandoned,another country will start a war,and we wont be able to play "catch up" and win this time..you can bet THEY wont be sitting idle,they will be building huge arsenals,paid for with american dollars for products we were stupid enough to stop making here,because it was cheaper to import them...we are financing our own destruction..why our "leaders" cant see this is beyond me.. :confused: :crazy:
     
  11. Can Can

    Can Can Pusher Man Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Although I'm not a Clinton fan, you boys should be thanking your lucky stars that he got NAFTA pushed through. Without it, parts of your country would be without power and natural gas. Trust me.....
     
  12. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    My point was that MOST of the manufacturing capability we brought to bear during WWII was built FOR ww2. It wasn't converted. Sure, Ford can convert some assembly lines and make tanks... but thats damn near the only example and the military needs a lot of different things. Don't think you could convert a sewing machine building plant into a ship-building yard... or a bomb factory. They just require different infrastructure. They adapted what they could, but new plants is what really made our production capacity as off-the-charts big as it was.

    j
     
  13. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    As an American I find this very insulting. Our workers/businesses don't need to be coddled in order to compete. Low end crap is going to go where cheap labor is... and it should.

    I remember vividly the idiotic quote from 1992... "We can build the best smart bomb, but not the best VCR". What an absolute freaking joke. A working smart bomb requires about 50000 times the technological know-how... making a VCR is literally childsplay by comparison. We could make the best VCR in the history of VCRs if we wanted to... problem is, said VCR would be VERY expensive and few people would want to pay the $ for it, so we don't build them. This is not a knock against American consumers or our manufacturers, its just an economic reality. The more we try to unnaturally (via government regulation/taxes or just rabid "i only buy american" nationalism) shield our workers or industries the more we will weaken them. Competition makes homosapien strong.

    j
     
  14. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Sorry--no insults intended...

    I was just stating how my dad felt about us buying forigen goods instead of supporting our own workers--didn't mean to offend anyone!.. :doah: ....

    I guess some good does come out of the trade agreements with other countries,like Canamore said....but america should be able to take care of its own and then some,and not depend on other countries for everything,and eliminate a lot of our jobs..we should drill for more oil and gas in our own country,so if saudi arabia or other countries decide to shut the tap off,we are not in dire straights..we are putting ourselves at risk by not being self-sufficient first--I dont have a problem with buying oil and gas elsewhere--but it should not be our ONLY source either..we should at least have refineries in place,ready to go online..

    I think its kind of sad to compare how America was 50 years ago,with all kinds of factories,jobs,new industries..lots of prosperity,your money actually bought something then.(like the house I grew up in for 12K!--try doing that now!),--and it was good quality stuff too,not junk..

    Now it cheaper to buy it from China or somewhere else..and many jobs are gone..along with much of our pride it seems..now we are just a nation of buyers and consumers--but we aren't the ones making 90% of the stuff..someday we might regret that... :crazy:
     
  15. Corey 78K5

    Corey 78K5 1 ton status

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    I think that is the problem. People looked at the Malibu and Impala and couldn't get past the ugly looks and piss poor quality :eek1: :whistle:
     
  16. 89GMCSuburban

    89GMCSuburban 1/2 ton status

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    They are not going to live down the bad rep they got in the 70's and 80's. Anytime I tell someone that's looking for a car, "Why don't you check out a (insert american made car)?" they say, "Hell no! It'll just fall apart!" It's never "I don't like how it looks" or "the price isn't right". It's always "It will fall apart." They still have to overcome that bad reputation.
     
  17. 89GMCSuburban

    89GMCSuburban 1/2 ton status

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    Not when it's only the bottom line, though. People today don't care about spending $50 more for a quality product they only need to buy once, they'd rather pay $50 less but have to replace it three times as often. I see it on trucks all the time....people save $150 putting on a reman clutch instead of buying a new one. They're going to have to replace it sooner...but whatever they want.

    People nowadays flat out (when it doesn't come to houses and cars) don't give a flip about paying more for a quality product. People are so in debt from buying their decked out Camrys and Accords, everything else they buy has got to be cheap so they can eat. Nobody wants to pay $100 for an American made DVD player that will last forever...they'll buy the "made in china" one for $39.

    In a way, guys, this is Marx here. Capitalism will destroy itself just for the bottom line. It will "streamline" itself to do the same work with less and less workers, meaning less jobs, meaning less money to buy made products, means less demand, means less jobs, means CRASH!!!!

    Don't get your panties in a bunch, I'm not a communist or anything....but doesn't that make sense?

    I just hope I don't live to see the day that everyone else makes everything for the country that has everybody working at home on a laptop with an obesity rate of 99.9% and an allergic reaction to the sun.

    Arrrrrrrrrrrgh :mad:
     
  18. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    American car manufacturers also have to overcome the marketing perception that imports are always better than the domestics.

    If you really pay attention to recalls and TSB announcements, the imports are just as flawed as the domestics..

    the automotive press does a great job of cheerleading for the imports, so the domestics can't get a fair shake anyhow. The press still labors under the conviction that daimler had to save chrysler, when in fact it was the other way around.

    Tom
     
  19. cbbr

    cbbr 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    I will not buy inferior products at inflated prices. Period. If the best car for the $$ is a honda, that's what I will drive. The problem that I have with this statement is that it enables the piss poor behavior that got the big 3 into this mess to begin with. In a market economy, better products win. Period.

    Chevy made what i consider a great truck for my purpose, a 1990 Suburban. I bought one and love it. Nothing from japan can compare. That said, my DD is a car and is not American. For the $$ I get better mileage, reliability and performance than I would from a Chevy.
     
  20. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    Well, I see where you are going with your thought process, but capitalism won't kill itself. In fact, it's our only hope.

    GM is dying because it was forced to become a benefits administrator first, and a car company second. You could say that marxist principles applied to a capitalistic enterprise is a recipe for disaster. GM is proof.

    The beauty of capitalism is that when one market diappears, others appear. Leaving a GM job and ending up at walmart isn't the only alternative.. I know some ex pittsburgh steelmill guys who pooled their money and bough a franchise that refills ink cartridges, and they make more money than ever before. As long as people can make money doing things like scooping dog doo, there is hope for America. Look around, you can see emerging new markets and opportunities to serve them everywhere in this country.

    A great quote I read once describes it perfectly : capitalism results in an unequal sharing of blessings, but communism / socialism / marxism results in an equal sharing of misery.

    People have to be willing to change, and get over the concept that their employment is forever, and that their employer will take care of them from cradle to grave.

    I can see where you would think a crash is inevitable, but it's not.. the system will only fail if people give up and don't apply themselves.

    Tom
     

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