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what to do about a winch mount

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by WakeBoard&4X4er, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. WakeBoard&4X4er

    WakeBoard&4X4er 1/2 ton status

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    I have a winch that I have wanted to mount on my truck for about 6 months just been laze, but now that is it getting close to more wheeling time I think I should get this think on.

    This is what I am thinking about doing. I have some ideas on making a front bumper that has a receiver in the middle of it so that I can place the winch on a removable mount. This would be nice so that I could put it in the rear if I want as well. I would also like to do this so I could have more clearance and it would out of the weather. Who has done this? What is the best place to get quick connects for a winch? Or I could just get some long 0-gage wire to the rear with some twist on terminals. If I do the long 0-gage, do I have to run the Ground for the winch to the battery, or just the frame? One other up side to this would be that I could use the winch to pull my boat on to the trailer!!! Not that I can not drive it up.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Muddytazz

    Muddytazz 1 ton status

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    Yes, both ground and power need to run straight to the battery. You can pre-made quick-connects already made up pretty cheap.
     
  3. WakeBoard&4X4er

    WakeBoard&4X4er 1/2 ton status

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    OK thanks for that info.
     
  4. BLUESMAN

    BLUESMAN 1/2 ton status

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    You can get the disconnects at a local welding and/or electrical shop.You can also buy a portable winch mount to bolt the winch on and throw it on your receiver hitches thru www.jcwhitney.com.About $30 to 70 bucks.I am going to mount a rear receiver hitch up front behind the bumber and cut the hole for the receiver.Mike
     
  5. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

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    For quick disconnects people (or at least my Dad) have been using the ones fork lift trucks use for the last fifteen years. Most of them are aught or zero gauge. I don't know if you've ever seen an RC car, but they look like a giant version of the connectors you see on 7.2V and 9.6V batteries. I think I once saw them at Dunham's in the boating section. People use them on their boats for their trolling motors.

    You should run two cables to the battery. However, if you want, you can run the ground from the battery to the frame and then hook the winch's ground to the frame. I'd still run two cables straight from the battery though. This way (in theory) you know you'll get a good ground.

    This would be a good time to install a second battery. There is nothing more embarassing than winching on your truck for half an hour and end up with a dead battery. You could just leave the motor running but.. Plus, this way you could have less of a shock to your charging system. You can control when it charges so it does it when you're driving around (this way your alternator doesn't have to work as hard).
     
  6. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    You could just leave the motor running but..

    [/ QUOTE ] You can still end up stranded, even with the motor running. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif A winch will pull 400+ amps while under a heavy load. Once the battery has no more reserve, then it's up to the alternator. Even the beefiest aftermarket alternator is only rated at around 200 amps. So due to the load of the winch motor, the voltage will drop, the coil will stop firing, and the engine will stop. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

    It will take longer to get to the point that everything goes dead, since the alternator will be "helping" with the load of the winch. But you can still end up needing a jump start.
     
  7. backyardbuilt

    backyardbuilt 1/2 ton status

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    If you come over the house saturday I can show you some wire I have from my old stereo it is the same diameter as my winches cable I have about 20 feet or so, I just found it in the garage still playing with that yoke I will call you after 3:00 when I get to work.
     
  8. WakeBoard&4X4er

    WakeBoard&4X4er 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks!!!

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    This would be a good time to install a second battery

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The one that i have runs NO THING AT ALL. it just sits there and charges. i have used it to just my self once or trice.
     
  9. WakeBoard&4X4er

    WakeBoard&4X4er 1/2 ton status

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    i will let you know

    thanks
     
  10. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

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    I definitely know what you're saying but..

    Well, if you're going to be there for hours winching then I suppose it'd be a good idea to keep the RPMs up and take a break periodically. The average person probably gets themselves out within a few minutes of sparking up the winch.

    If you plan on getting stuck that bad then you should have two batteries. There are those weird people that run off two batteries all the time but I prefer to isolate one and have an isolator I can turn on and off when I want to. It comes in handy to have such things so you can jumpstart yourself because you left your parking lights on (not that I've ever done that or anything.. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif )

    Even the best alternator only makes 15-30% of its peak current when at idle. Even if it could produce its peak amount of current at idle it'd stall all but the beefiest motors.

    If any winch pulled 400amps for any period of time double aught wire (good for 200amps) would get toasty (think melting insulator kind of toasty) and the battery would do some serious complaining about the magnitude of the chemical reaction you're expecting it to provide. Not to mention the amount of heat the winch is going to be feeling. You're talking about five thousand watts. A good chunk of that is getting turned to heat. More heat = less efficient internals in the winch. Before long you've got a crispy crittered winch. Since the battery can't produce 13.6 volts for long with that kind of draw the voltage drops and there is even more current being demanded. After a while, the winch will just stall but the engine in the truck won't. The truck only needs about 8v to operate and the winch will overheat or the electric motor will fail to operate before then. Most winches I've seen have cutoffs so they won't operate without at least 10v.

    I've seen a lot of people do some stupid things but I've never seen a winch cause a motor to stop running. I've always figured you needed 15 minutes of charging for every 2 minutes of winching. You can speed that up by bumping your idle up to 1700-1900rpm (which is what most people's fast idle for their choke is) with a solenoid like what is used to keep the r's up with air conditioning.

    I still think most people are out long before they need dual batteries though. Even the slowest winch can get you a couple feet in two minutes which is all that you really need.

    And all of this out of a kid who can't afford to own a winch..
     
  11. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Check out the specs for the Warn HS9500i: http://www.warn.com/warn.nsf/pages/TruckProducts.Winches.winchHS9500i.html

    and the 8274-50: http://www.warn.com/warn.nsf/pages/TruckProducts.Winches.winchM8274.html

    Or the Ramsey Platinum 9500: http://www.ramsey.com/winches/platinum9500.html

    It's actually pretty easy to draw 400 amps with a winch. Yes, the wires will get hot during extended pulls and the motor gets very hot. The specs that they list are for when the cable is just on the first layer of the drum. As the drum fills, the motor has to work even harder at a given weight. I've heard of people melting the posts right off of a battery, but that's pretty extreme. And burned up winch motors are a fairly common occurance.

    If you play in mudholes, then you probably don't need to use the winch for very long. But when you play in the rocks and the mountains, you can end up dragging a truck up the side of a mountain, while it's laying on its side or its roof. Use a wimpy battery and/or charging system and you'll be SOL pretty quickly. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

    Keeping the engine speed up isn't an issue, if the truck is on its wheels and actually able to run. The driver can keep the revs up while steering the truck in the proper direction.

    Line speed is important for a couple of things. If you're stuck on a beautiful sunny day, then it doesn't make much difference. But if it's 40 degrees and raining outside, or 15 degrees and the snow is blowing horizontally, you'll really care how fast or slow the winch can pull that cable in. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif That's one of the things that many people don't like about the Mile Marker hydraulic winches. They're powerful, but painfully slow, even with no load. If you're standing there freezing your cajones off while it retrieves 100 feel of cable at 10 or 15 feet per minute, you'll be wishing that you had a Warn 8274 that has an unloaded line speed of over 70 feet per minute. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Mile Marker now has 2-speed winches to help with this problem.

    Most likely, the winch motor will need to rest long before the battery is totally dead. But keeping the engine running is no guarantee that it won't die. This is especially true for folks that take their beater trucks into the boonies with a 5-year old battery that was made to last 4 years. They're doing good if the truck starts even before they start using the winch. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I've been on trail rides with these folks before! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    After a while, the winch will just stall but the engine in the truck won't.

    [/ QUOTE ] As I stated above, this is true ONLY if the battery still has plenty of reserve left. Once the battery dies, the winch motor appears as almost a dead short to the output of the alternator, quickly pulling it to near zero volts. Since the reserve of the battery is exhausted, the engine will die... /forums/images/icons/frown.gif It's Ohms Law. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  12. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

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    So you're telling me most of these winch manufacturers still don't protect their own winches? I've only seen a few in my days (and they weren't Ramsey, Superwinch, or Warn). One was military surplus and another was one off a tow truck. I've seen some less expensive winches that'll keep on pulling until either the battery eats itself, a wire melts, or the electric motor in the winch gets toasted. I've seen a lot of guys that ended up with dead batteries and wouldn't start but I've never seen one where the winch didn't stop before the truck stalled.

    I don't know many conventional batteries that like to operate any way but right side up.

    I know what you mean by people taking batteries out in the woods that aren't even fit to be used as a lawnmower battery. I remember this one guy bragging "it's only four years... past it's five year warranty". All I did is smile and nod. hehe.


    As far as I'm concerned the winch can move a foot a minute whether it's dragging half a ton across concrete or reeling in slack. It's a lot better than nothing. Now, I'd be upset if I payed a lot for it and that was the case. But as far as I'm concerned a winch is way overpriced for what you get anyway.
     
  13. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Yep, I see no mention on either the Warn or Ramsey site about a thermal overload protection device. Nor have I noticed a reset button for one on any winch that I've seen. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif Apparently, the motor IS the fuse. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  14. Muddytazz

    Muddytazz 1 ton status

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    No, the motor doesn't have a reset switch. The thermal overload protection device your talking about is not sold by any winch manufacturer, it is sold by the autoparts stores (or winch installation place) as added protection. Typically they use a marine switch.
     
  15. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Do you have a link to one of those gadgets? I'd like to check it out. I've seen marine switches that let you select different battery configurations, if you're running dual batteries, but I haven't seen a thermal overload switch. How does it sense the temp of the winch motor?
     
  16. Muddytazz

    Muddytazz 1 ton status

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    If I can find it i'll post it. Buddy of mine bought his from a boat place...IIRC its wired to the inside of the motor directly to the windings.
     
  17. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    I wonder if you have ever been mudding to state that the winch use is easier then rock guys?
    an 8274 on paper looks useless to me
    at only 200:1 gearing with the same motor as other winches that run 400:1 it looks like it will stall out and you will be walking home, I will take slow and powerful over fast and stalled
    rock guys just need a lil tug to get un high centre'd and speed is cool there i guess,
    dragging a full size through a pit is taxing on winches
    I have dragged them out of deep holes with tranny locked in gear, double or triple lined
    I have seen 10000 Warns stall without any visual movement of the vehicle several times on a couple of different trucks
    no way would I even consider paying for any 8000
    if I had a MM that was slow I would put a real pump on it
    what rpm are these guys running the engine at with the MM?
    I would love to see any real winch that uses spur gears other then the 8274.
    I have seen planetaries and worm in industrial apps but no one uses the weaker spur to my knowledge unless in the gear box prior to a worm.

    there has to be a reason that Warn makes all its winches other then that old model as a planet gear, and that no one else ever copied the spur one.
    if it was better all Warns would be spur and someone else would be using it in something.

    loaded line speed is the only number that means anything to me as long as it is moving I will get unstuck.
     
  18. Blazer79

    Blazer79 1/2 ton status

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    All the reasons posted here are why I'm sold on a hydraulic winch.

    You need the engine running anyway, it works under water, and no need to stop for 15 minutes to recharge the battery, a line that wont break, even the US Army Hummers are using hydraulic winches.

    A winch is the last upgrade in my list, but I'm definitely getting one and it's going to be a hydraulic one.
     

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