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Where to put my subs??

Discussion in 'Audio' started by Itali83, Oct 30, 2001.

  1. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    I got 2 10's I'll be putting in my truck. I need to find a place for them. I was thinking about under the front seats for the least ammount of space taken up. This would be ideal for me. But I don't want to get sick of all of the ABI (anal bass injection) that I and my passengers would be getting. I can't just make a box and put it in behind the rear seat becuase I have a whole drumset that will be in and out of my truck 4 times a week. SO it's gotta be off to the sides, taking as little room as possible. Any pics or anything that can help me out with making my custom boxes?? Any one deal with subs under the seats?? Is it annoying/perverted?? Thanks guys.
    Ben 87 jimmy
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  2. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well not to pat myself on the back too hard.....but I just finished doing the exact thing you are asking about! [​IMG]

    Lucky for you, there are LOTS of photos of how I got those 10s in my K5 and saved all the rear storage space. You can check the pics out here:

    <a target="_blank" href=http://community.webshots.com/user/gblanchette72>http://community.webshots.com/user/gblanchette72</a>

    I don't know what year your K5 is, but the concept would be the same regardless of the year. Building these enclosures was a bit of a PITA, but the completed system absolutely CRANKS, and there is more bass than I would ever want to FEEL.....[​IMG]

    Check 'em out and let me know if you have questions.

    -Greg72
     
  3. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    I remember looking at those pics, That system totally rocks!!!!!! That is a LOT of work and I don't know if I can handle doing that and definitly don't want to pay someone to build that. Just for giggles, would under the seat be all that bad?? I understand they may not put out the sound as they would if they were in the open, but for the space taken up and the sneak attack factor, that seems like the best&gt; I'm just looking for ideas. Thanks greg, and I may do my boxes like that, If I do, I'll definitly be picking your brain for help and tips, thanks again!!!!!
    ben 87 Jimmy
     
  4. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Itali83,

    The problem you will find with under the seat installation is that there really isn't that much room. It is critical to remember that the seat foam deforms when you sit on it and the area under the seat where your butt is pushing down is going to be a couple of inches lower than it is when you take a static measurement.

    I had to deal with this just mounting the amps under my seats....and I mean "Under" my seats, not to the floor but actually suspended from the seat frames themselves. I wanted to keep them out of any water that could potentially get onto the floor if I decided to cross a river or something.

    PLUS at least on the driver's side, you have all the hardware for sliding the seat forward and back....the return spring, the lever, etc. It's just more crap that gets in the way......again, discovered from personal experience! [​IMG]

    I just don't think there's going to be even 1 cubic foot of useable space under the seat by the time you shrink the box down so it doesn't interfere with things. Don't forget you have to subtract the thickness of the enclosure materials too, and the displacement of the speaker magnet too.... In my own K5, I thought I'd "net" a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure, but by the time I was done with all the "losses" from the cabinet contruction, I was barely able to eek-out a .92 cubic foot space!

    If all of this hasn't scared you away, and you still think you can figure out a way to do it....I would suggest that you mount the speaker facing DOWN towards the floor...use some small standoffs or something so that the speaker excursion doesn't hit the floor. You'll be able to couple the bass to the cab of the K5 that way and you'll feel the bass in a more "natural" way......I agree with you, the idea of a subwoofer playing directly into your butt would get annoying very quickly! [​IMG]

    Hope this gives you a few ideas, and keeps you from learning everything the hard way (like I seem to do!)

    -Greg72
     
  5. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks a lot greg. I know, it is hard becuase I'm picky and want it a certain way and only that way. I think I'm gonna do some serious measuring under the seat. But if it won't work out, I think I'm gonna steal your set up, or something similar, I'm going to try to simplify the design, you have a TON of pieces for each box. But it looks so awesome.
    So how does your system sound?? Does it punch hard? Feel it right in your back?? Just any tips you can give me would be great! Thanks again and I'm sure I'll be keeping in touch.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
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  6. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ben,

    It's hard to describe the sound....it IS amazing! Each time I do a system they seem to get more powerful and complex. The K5 is by far the most complex one I've done....(woodworking, integration, electrical, amount of equipment installed)

    I think what makes this one my favorite is the "punchiness" of it. With 2 mid-basses in each door and 800 watts driving them....the bass is SO snappy and immediate. Yes the LOW bass is really there too with those ported 10's but to me, integrating the subs with the upper bass is what really makes the music come alive!

    There is incredible clarity depending on how well the CD's are recorded. There are some CDs where you can really visualize the tighness of the drumskin on the kickdrum, and hear the brushes swirling on the snaredrum as the drummer does different effects....really neat.

    And of course I can make my guts hurt and shake all the mirrors in the truck too if someone wants THAT type of demo. The system was loud with the top off, now with the hardtop on for the winter it is REALLY LOUD!!! I actually had to re-tune it and cut some of the bass....it was just too overwhelming in an enclosed space.

    You can get plenty of sound with 10's....just be sure to give them (and all your speakers LOTS of clean power) and it'll sound awesome. [​IMG]

    -Greg72
     
  7. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    Greg, I can't say how much I apreciate all of your WELL WRITTEN replies. That is so nice. I think I'm gonna be making some boxes similar to yours because I don' t think the under seat will be the best. I'm also going to be running 4 Pioneer premiere 6x9's I already have 2 running now, very good speakers, very clean for oval speakers. Those will be powered with a Kenwood excelon 201 amp, my subs are goign to be powered with the same thing, just the 301 version, so some more power. I plan to add some round speakers and probally some tweeters to get the total high end sound that I can get. I'll keep you updated on how things go and I'll take pics of my installation also. THANKS AGAIN!!! Keep in touch.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
     
  8. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ben,

    You're WELCOME! You know I was thinking that something else that's important to say "for the record" is that there is really no ONE thing that will make a system sound good. There are a lot of steps that are a lot less glamorous than installing subs.....running the correct gauge power wires for the current draw of the amps, wiring in some "caps" to help your battery and alternator keep the juice flowing, fuses in the engine compartment so the whole thing doesn't burn to the ground...etc.

    I want to let you know that the "Concept" of what I did in my K5 is simple. I wanted to use a small number of speakers and drive them with a LOT of power. As you add more and more speakers, it gets harder to make them all work together and sound good. That is something that you should think seriously about. Each speaker will need some sort of crossover to keep the frequencies out that it is incapable of reproducing....that adds cost, and there are always phase problems when passive crossovers are used.

    My suggestion is to draw out exactly what you want in your ride, and spend time trying to define what frequencies are going to each speaker and how much power you are sending to each channel. I have an "ear-bleeding" system that only has 8 speakers (2 subs, 4 midbasses, 2 tweeters). I think you can achieve what you want sound-wise and SPL-wise with less speakers than you are planning.....perhaps spend that money on a good quality deck (4V output or higher) or the cabling and caps you'll need. (I never factor those costs in, and I always get bummed that there a few hundred more bucks to spend!)

    Anyway, I'm on this board all the time. If you post your ideas or a schematic drawing of what you plan to do, I'll be happy to look at it for you and tell you what I think.

    You're a drummer, eh? No wonder you liked my last post! [​IMG]

    -Greg72
     
  9. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    yea most definitly, I love listening and being able to feel the drums hit!! I got some sweet drum solo songs so I can't wait to try them out. The reason I have so many 6x9's is that they were given to me for christmas and birthdays so they were free to me, so I want to use them. My friend right now has almost the exact same set up in his ;96 S-10 and his is the best sounding system I've heard. 2 !0's with the 301 amp that I just bought, 2 6x9's and 2 4x6's powered by the 201 amp that I will be getting. SO I'm hoping that mine will sound as good as his does, the only thing he has on me is that he is using JL subs and I got JBL's. But the price was right for mine, and If I don't like them. JL's here I come.
    DO you have any of the acual measurments that you took to make the boxes?? My truck is an 87 so I know it will be different, but I was wondering if the basic design of the wheel wells would be the same.
    I do want to know why the boxer were so complex? Why didn't you just make a top, bottom, front side back side, and the angled part where the sub acually is?? I'm not dissing your design, I'm just dumb and want to know why that is better or helps the sound. Thanks greg and we'll be keeping in touch.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
     
  10. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ben,

    No useful measurements to share unfortunately....I built everything with cardboard first, and used that as a template to cut the MDF. You could probably do something similar to figure out how big to make everything.

    As far as my own boxes....the only reason I made them such a strange shape was to get extra air volume inside the box. That section that goes over the wheel hump was about 12" wide and 4" tall and probably another 12" long....that's about 1/3 of a cubic foot of space. Without that my enclosures would have only been about .65 cubes, which would not have worked at all for a ported 10-incher. It was really all about growing that enclosure until I hit the magic 1.0 cu ft number!!! [​IMG]

    If you like drum solos....the best one's I've EVER heard (and my favorite demo disc) is called "The Track &amp; Drum Record" by a small label called Sheffield Labs. Their claim-to-fame is recording artists straight to two-track with no extra processing or mixing. It gives the recordings an AMAZING sound quality and purity. When you hear those drums you'll know what I mean.....!

    -Greg72

    How far from Portland, ME are you?
     
  11. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    I am right next to portland maine!!!!!! 15 minutes from the imfamous old port.
    Ok, So your boxes are ported correct?? I was planning on making sealed boxes, Is this good/bad?? How much cu/ft should I look to get in either situation. Which is better, sealed or ported? I like punch mostly, I wanna feel like someone is hitting my in the back when the subs hit.
    Who do you know in portland or in maine period?? Not many CK5'ers up heya. Yessah, it's wicked cold up heya in the wintah time ayuh. lol Keep in touch.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
     
  12. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch 1/2 ton status

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    Man Has been a while since I've stopped in but man Greg72 your setup looks phenominal! You said those boxes were ported? where is the port on them? I like how you have them angled a bit... I assume that is to help the waves bounce of the back tailgate area? What volume are those boxes... about a cubic foot?

    I still am looking to make some side panels that wil have a couple ported 10 boxes incorporated into them

    -Mikey
    1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
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  13. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ben,

    Sealed boxes are a lot easier....and generally can be smaller in size than a ported one. Mine are 1.0 cuft ported and you can see from the picture that the port is EXTERNAL to the box. If the port is internally mounted, you must subract all the volume that it displaces from your "net volume" calculation.....and I don't just mean the thickness of the port material.....also all the space inside the port itself!

    A single ported 10" speaker will have the same apparent "loudness" as two 10" speakers in a sealed box....the tradeoff is that the ported box will only play down to it's "tuned frequency" and then it will try to destroy itself with uncontrolled speaker oscillations. My subs are tuned to about 32Hz, which realistically is probably lower than most recorded music goes anyway...

    With the top installed on my K5....sealed enclosures would have probably been fine the fact that the subs are playing in a relatively small space makes them more efficient. It's a phenomenon called the "transfer function" of the vehicle. HOWEVER, once I pull the top off and have to try to get bass with a wide open vehicle, I am glad that I've got the extra OOOMPH of the ported boxes.

    If you never pull the top off your Blazer, sealed boxes are probably all you will need....and they're a LOT easier to design and build, and a generally considered to be more "accurate" sounding.

    My sister lives in Cape Elizabeth, ME. I will be spending Christmas with her this year. My wife and I are planning to re-locate from here to the Salem, NH area in the next few months.....and my K5 is coming with me! I figure that depending on your schedule to install your system, you might be able to listen to mine and then make your decisions about what you wanted to do. Ayup....been ta Maine! [​IMG]

    -Greg72
     
  14. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Mr. Crunch, [​IMG]

    The ports are actually out the back (towards the tailgate) looks sort of like a cannon aiming out the back of the box. The boxes themselves netted-out to something like .92 cu ft. I managed to get about 1/2 pound of polyfill into each one to "fake out" a little extra volume. The angled side where the speaker is mounted is actually between the front and rear seats and is angled toward the front listeners.....not so much to "steer" the bass, but I just wanted to preserve all the rear legroom, and make it easy fo people to climb in &amp; out of the rear seat area without banging their legs on a square box. The wavelength of bass frequencies are VERY long, so it doesn't really matter where the speakers are pointing.

    The thing I hadn't really considered with the port out the back is that when the side panels are installed, there is no way for the port to "breathe". Just for fun, I installed the side panels without cutting any holes in them, and they vibrated SO bad it was rediculous. I got a 2" hole saw (like the kind for cutting doorknob holes!) and cut 30 holes in the side panels, then carpeted over them. They look normal, but they breathe great, and now there are no unwanted vibrations.

    Glad you liked them......I am confident you will like 10's also. It's plenty of bass, especially if you port them.

    -Greg72
     
  15. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    Ok, I designed my boxes, but I'm a idiot so I don't know how to figure out how much area the box will have, I'm gonna talk to my math teacher tomorrow and he'll help me out. I think I'm going to do the sealed box becuase I NEVER take the top off and it will be much simpiler. But for sealed 10's, is .75 cu ft about right?
    When you come to maine, we should plan a time and talk about k5 stuff. That would be cool. Well, thanks for everything and I'll tell ya how things go.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
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  16. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    If the box is all 90 degree angles (no fancy stuff) then it's just

    Length(in) x Width(in) x Height(in) / 1728 (1728 is the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot)

    That will give you the total volume in cubic feet.....BUT

    You will need to subract the thickness of the material too. I'd be using 3/4" MDF if I were you, so be sure to subtract 1.5" from each dimension before doing the calculations above.

    So for a box that was exactly 12" x 12" x 12"

    You'd multiply: ( 10.5 x 10.5 x 10.5 ) / 1728 = .66 cu feet!

    See how much you lose on the "internal volume"? The outside measurement is exactly 1.0 cu ft, but it's MUCH smaller on the inside. PLUS you should really be subtracting the speaker displacement from that calculation too. JL Audio publishes theirs on the website. I'm not sure about JBL.

    If you want help with any of the math....or just want help checking that you got the right numbers just post what you've got and I'll take a look at it for ya!

    -Greg72
     
  17. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    Yea I know how to get area of square or rectangle shapes no problem. and I did know about the inside volume from your website. BUT, none of the sides of my boxes that I've come up with are even close to being either of those shapes. I'l just have my math teacher help me tomorrow [​IMG] Then I'll see what I got to work with. I may have to incorperate the space over the wheel wells too, just not leave them open liek you did. Thanks again.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
     
  18. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yeah, you'll have to break down that box into smaller shapes and calculate each one seperately. I remember doing like 1 calc for a rectangle and then about 7 for triangular shapes....and then added them all up together!!! What a pain....

    Of course, you could always just build it.....fill it with water, and then dump the water into some sort of calibrated container to see what you ended up with. [​IMG] Of course, it's kind of too late by then....if it's too small you get to start all over. [​IMG]

    -Greg72
     
  19. Itali83

    Itali83 1/2 ton status

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    I'm gonna pick my teacher's brain. Thats my best bet. hahaha. Make him do the work. Well, thanks agian.
    Ben 87 Jimmy
     
  20. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ben,

    When you get a chance, post a few of the "drum solo" songs that you like to listen to. I'm curious to know if it's stuff I already own, or if there's some new stuff I should be checking out.....

    I'm always "on the prowl" for the latest &amp; greatest demo songs for my car audio systems. I can post a few of my personal favorites if anyone cares....with the how's and why's behind each selection.

    I think it would be fun if Ryan, PremBird, and other "old timers" on this list would do the same. I'll start a new thread and ask for submissions......[​IMG]

    -Greg72
     

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