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why don't everybody have a sm465?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by k5texan, Sep 28, 2002.

  1. k5texan

    k5texan 1/2 ton status

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    why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    there is probaly a simple answer to this but i am still new and learning so here goes.

    Origianaly i wanted a 400 tranny cause i am to lazy to shift gears, but i got a 465 in a parts truck. i got to looking and it has a 6.5 to 1 first gear. with that and a 205 with 4.88 gears that would put my crawl ratio at about 63 right(6.5x2x4.88). were a 400 with 4.88s and a doubler would only have 49 to 1(2.5x4x4.88). so if i am thinking right the sm465 would be the cheapest way to get a low crawl ratio if i am not to lazy to shift gears.

    thanks for any advice,
    jared
     
  2. rebelk5frk

    rebelk5frk 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    I love mine... well at least until today when I had to replace the clutch.

    The 465 is great for the low ratio but it also has it's drawbacks. It's gear ratios between each gear is a kind of far apart compared to some of the automatics. Not very good if you mud race etc.

    Also with it being a standard, for really tricky stuff it takes even more skill with a clutch or a third foot. (or like Depdog use a hand throttle).

    The reason why everyone doesn't have one is because some folks like to rebuild thier transmission everytime they get too happy with the skinny pedal or try to tow an 18 wheeler... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  3. k5texan

    k5texan 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    I plan to make a more of a crawler than anything, not saying i dont drive around mud pit!! I just thoght since i already have one with a 205 mounted to it i would defintly be cheaper than finding a 400 with a 205. plus with the new 3 to 1 205 kit ORD plans to come out with it should give me about 95 to 1 with 4.88s and fora lot cheaper than a 400 with a doubler. and if i double that up later it would get about 190 to 1 !!!!
    any more info is greatly appreciated

    thanks
    jared
     
  4. k5ntexas

    k5ntexas 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    i think that the sm465 to np205 is 10 spline and i don't know if it would matter but i would think so. just my thoughts. i want a 465 matted to a 208 but then i wouldn't be able to do the doubler which is what i wanna do. well later.

    jacob
     
  5. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    The 10 spline and coupler are the weak point...

    I've had the 465/205 in my Jimmy for 5 years now and I love it. Reliable as hell and a great low gear for crawling. I have 4.56's and 36" TSL's right now and in low/low i can walk faster than the truck at 3000 RPM.

    The only drawback I'd say the 465 has is the big split between gears (as was already mentioned) You aren't gonna win any races with it. Then again you'll never destroy it either.

    rene
     
  6. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Jared,

    Something else to consider with any automatic tranny when you calculate crawl ratio is the effect of the torque converter at low rpm. It effectively "doubles" the gear ratio until it reaches stall speed, so to be fair in your comparison, the TH400 calcs should be:

    2.48*2*4*4.88=96.81 (with a doubler)
    2.48*2*2*4.88=48.40 (no doubler)

    So you see the "Slushbox Guys" aren't really doing that bad either!!! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  7. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Greg...let's see you start your truck without a starter. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    Just adding fuel to an old debate/forums/images/icons/grin.gif/forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    Rene
     
  8. trailblazer87

    trailblazer87 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Manual lock up converter /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
    Just gotta push it a little faster to get it going.
     
  9. thebigdaddyof2

    thebigdaddyof2 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    let's really ruffle some feathers.....

    "Why doesn't everyone have an SM465?"

    BECAUSE CLUTCHES ON THE TRAIL SUCK!
    -that's why.
     
  10. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Oh I dunno mine does well on most trails I go on.
    Mud pits screw me up sometimes when I misjudge the goo and pick the wrong gear to be in.
    As everyone knows once ya start through you are commited until you are clear.
    Dunes are the same way, I have tried different shifting methods but they are generaly pretty harsh on the drive train.
     
  11. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Also, 63:1 is not really that good a crawl ratio in the rocks. Especially if you have really big tires. I’ve seen better crawl ratios than that stall relatively frequently with experienced stick drivers. For a manual in the rocks, you need some really low gears to ease around real slow and “in control” without having to ride the clutch. Also, "3 footing" the gas, brake, and clutch can get pretty hairy off camber climbing through the rocks at extreme angles. And, just wait till you bounce unexpectedly causing you to let your foot slip off the clutch to fast, then hang on for the ride as you make like a barrel. Auto guys essentially have "infinite" crawl ratios as long as the converter/tranny can handle it. In my rig, I can run it up to around 1200-1500 rpms with my foot on the brake and creep just as slow as I want. Then I’ve already got my foot on the brake as I crest whatever I’m climbing so there is less lurching. It's tough on the clutches but, with a large aux cooler and periodic fluid changes, it should last a while. And really, clutches aren't THAT hard to put into an auto... Just don’t try it with a 700! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

    One other thing, if you do add a doubler, it's MUCH easier with an auto since 203s are relatively abundant. Especially for the TH350. However, it can be practically impossible to find a 203 behind a SM465... And if you think those low gear sets for the 205 are going to be at a reasonable price point anytime soon, think again. From what I’ve heard, it will come in around $1k at a minimum…

    Me, I want a 465 between my TH400 and 205. Lots of options and tough as nails. Just have to avoid using low on the 465! With that kind of torque multiplication you could snap ANYTHING with no warning.
     
  12. Seventy4Blazer

    Seventy4Blazer 3/4 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    i plan on running the 465/203 for now. and then getting the doubler some day.
    5.13 gears and 44's. and if i feel i need more or want to drop my gears to 4.88 i can install the 3 to 1 kit for the 205.
    grant
     
  13. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    most people cannot drive,
    so they get autos.
     
  14. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    63:1 aint bad for all stock, no custom parts.
    465s are dirt cheap and reliablity is pretty amazing
    more control of wheel speed
    the case rarely cracks
    for all purpose ride they are hard to beat
     
  15. Twiz

    Twiz 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    The only trans related breakage I saw at B.B. was a clutch linkage problem.

    The only time I've ever been "stuck" with a trans related problem was with a clutch related linkage problem.

    Never had a problem with my Autos....
    Well, nothing another trans wouldn't fix....

    /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  16. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Who the hell uses a clutch pedal to crawl anyways?? In low/low it's awefully hard to stall and if/when it does hit the starter in gear and carry on. I almost never "3 foot" it...

    Clutch linkage problem?? Big deal...much easier to fix than a fried slush box, especially on the trail.

    Russ...you should try 63:1, it ain't near as tall as you'd think. I can pull my truck down to under 1 foot per second without stalling it.

    All bullshit aside my truck has to serve a multitude of purposes, daily driver, tow pig (not as often as it used to...) weekend wheeler, and long haul reliable transport. My 465 has over 300,000 miles on it, shifts smoothly, doesn't pop out of gear and will probably go another 100,000 no problem.

    I don't play in mud so I could care less about the mud argument.../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

    The only thing I'd consider replacing my SM465 with is a NV4500...which I've had for a while. It does need some work though.

    Rene
     
  17. Butch

    Butch 1/2 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    Get um Rene!! I very seldom jack with my clutch on the trail either. And how hot is my tranny is question I never have to ask cause I dont care. Granted the doubler made driving it a lot easier for the rocks I would never get an auto. I see a lot of autos come up to a ledge and start giving gas to get going, more gas, more gas, more gas, then when the tires finally do turn they spin and they slip off. I come up idling get on the brakes right as I get there to slow down, but my forward momentum never stops like the auto's do. Potato/Potato The auto guys like their autos, I like my manuel. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  18. Burt4x4

    Burt4x4 3/4 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    I would never go with a slush box eather. Yes rockcrawling takes more time to learn using a stick and can get the adrenalin pumping so high your cluch leg starts to shake when nasty situations come about! I get so pumped up I have to get out and SCREAM, shake it off and jump back in and keep going! You slushbox lovers will never get to such a level of excitement. All you have to do is sit back turn the wheel and push on hte gas , oh hummm gee golly dodado ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz boring!!!heheheh
    Oh and my cure for the 'third foot' Mico Lever-lock, It locks up my front brakes and when I need to get moving again,like a steep hill, I have my left had on the leverlock and as I let the cluch out I also move the lever slowly to relase and all starts to go forward with no roll back!
    SM465 FOR LIFE!
    YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif
     
  19. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    63:1 aint bad for all stock, no custom parts.
    465s are dirt cheap and reliablity is pretty amazing
    more control of wheel speed
    the case rarely cracks
    for all purpose ride they are hard to beat

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Agreed on all points. I was mainly putting forth my reason(s) for not going with 465, and generalizing a bit too.

    Even so, add 40”+ tires and put that rig in the rocks here, and I think it would be “fun” to say the least. Not for me, I’m still learning how to deal with this crazy off-camber-on-the-side-of-the-canyon wheeling. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif There were places on Rusty Nail that I was GLAD to have the fine control of the auto. To do the same thing (with the same level of control/speed) in my rig with a 465 I would have needed 100:1 or better. In some parts where my backside was gripping the seat so hard that I didn’t need a seatbelt, I was inching along VERY slow. No doubt it could be (and has been) done with a 465 and crawl ratios not as good as 63:1, but I don’t want to fool with it. That’s when you get into “three footing”. And I do know how to drive a stick. I’ve had MANY of them from car haulers and 4x4s (including 465s) down to my CJ7 and even a Pinto /forums/images/icons/blush.gif. I know that “having driven” many sticks doesn’t mean I “know how to drive one” but, IMO I can stick with the best of them. (Pun intended /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif) Never tried to rock crawl one out here, but back in AL, with muddy hill climbs, creeks, a few rock piles, and of course, mud holes, they worked out very well as long as you didn’t need to row through the gears very quickly. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

    I guess it all comes down to this. If I had a good rig that I was running/building with the same goals I have now, and it started out with a 465, I would build from there and not change to an auto. Likewise, starting with a TH400, I wouldn’t switch it for a 465 (obvious by now I guess). But, just to show my bias, when I went looking for a K30 to build, I was specifically looking for a TH400. Other combos would likely be looking for a new home… And you couldn’t beat me into running ANY 700R4, but people with DDs like them for the OD so they try to make do. It’s all based on what you want. As you know, there are pros/cons to every combo. I’m just pointing out that, IMO, a 465 is not “the ultimate”…
     
  20. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    Re: why don\'t everybody have a sm465?

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    most people cannot drive,
    so they get autos.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Glad to see you're still in top form! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
     

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