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Why you should care about politics...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Shaggy, Jul 7, 2004.

  1. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    I've started reading some blogs lately, it seems that there are some awful good ones out there now, unlike a year or so ago. I read this today and found it to be profound, so I wanted to share.

    [ QUOTE ]
    What MMoore is actually saying with F-911 is, "Look at me! I can throw mud! Look at meee!" Nothing deeper than that.

    The Democratic Party has long demonstrated its contempt for "the little people" whom it purports to "want to help," while advancing policies that make citizens more dependent and less capable, and the country weaker. Unfortunately, the alternative is to assume every individual is worthy of respect and capable of doing valuable work, and that it is up to all of us to work together to keep America strong and good. Hard to feel superior from that perspective.

    Now parts of the Democratic Party have overlapped with the Me-Mine-MMoore-Now! / MoveOn crowd and are being treated as serious participants in the American political discussion. This is a mistake.

    To treat the whole BusHitler meme as though it were serious is to validate garbage. To dismiss it as the tripe it is would be to fail to recognize the serious corrosive effect it has on citizens' confidence in the respectability of political discourse. Without the confidence of the citizens, political discourse devolves into the "roobba roobba roobba" noise of a looting mob. The business of citizens running our country does not get done. The country falls into the hands of those with the strongest stomachs and highest tolerance for the irrational, emotion-based approach. Decisions based on irrational, emotion-based appeals to the lowest common denominator are not good decisions.

    If we ignore the tactics of MMoore and MoveOn, we will have to live with those decisions.

    If we fail to call them on using these vile techniques in their efforts to arouse the mob rule mentality of the "consumer" we are, in effect, supporting them.

    The only counter to that approach is the high road. Appeals must be made for the return of the responsible citizen who is busy conducting his own life in a respectable manner and who has stepped back from political discourse out of disgust. The responsible, adult citizen must be encouraged to rejoin the fray or we will be left at the mercy of the omnivorous, media-driven gimmie-whimsey of the consumer.


    Otherwise we will live in a country run by the decisiveness of Kerry, the compassion of Hillary and the honesty of Teddy.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    From www.e-claire.us
     
  2. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    Great post. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    The responsible, adult citizen must be encouraged to rejoin the fray or we will be left at the mercy of the omnivorous, media-driven gimmie-whimsey of the consumer.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Troubling. I like to consider myself respectable and responsible. I've been giving a lot of serious thought to getting involved with politics. I'm discouraged from it by exactly the things this blog describes.
     
  3. 1-ton

    1-ton 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Political divisiveness is not a recent phenomenon. It has been around since America's beginnings. Look at John Adams, our second President, for instance. He was reviled by Benjamin Franklin, and had a life long friendship with Thomas Jefferson, our third President, that was terse at best because Adams was such a political divisive while trying to win the Presidency.

    Abraham Lincoln threw people, who where thought to be Rebel antagonist sympathizers, into prison during the Civil War with no charges or no right of Habeas Corpus (sound familiar). He also made backroom deals of Statehood in exchange for Electoral College votes so he could win his second bid for reelection.

    People who think Bush cares about them, and there Conservative convictions, apparently do not know a damn thing about him, and how many 100 of millions of dollars the Bush boys cost the American taxpayer when they looted the S&L banking system (this includes the Clintons). I am not saying there are no redeeming qualities about any of the Presidents mentioned, but I think people need to understand the reality of who these people where or are.
     
  4. Resurrection_Joe

    Resurrection_Joe 1 ton status

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    I'm always suprised when I read over transcripts of government bill arguments and such and thier so full of lies. O imagine I'm just naive but still...

    Anyway I try and stay updated, but the bother of it degenerates into neglect of politics at times.

    People grab onto the worst points about people and expound upon them. There's a lot of inflation of weak arguments going on.

    I think there's also a problem of scale now too, it's too big and too wide spread to be eassily understood or worked with.

    A lot of the problems in the world could be solved by restricting breeding. We're not struggling anymore.

    Gwah? (rambling)
     
  5. potato76

    potato76 1/2 ton status

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    Here is how i feel about politics.I have way too many things going on in my life to try and figure out who to vote for and all that.I cant say that id feel comfortable voting for any specific president because i dont really know how they are going to run things.I just know my opinions and what they SAY they will do.Well if I trusted everything i heard id would have lost money in enron.So how do you base these dicisions??I honestly dont know.Im not saying i dont vote or wont vote because i will. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gifI can easily vote the props cuz i know what they are all about.I can even vote some of the local positions,but i dont have the patience to sit and research which president to vote for.I also cant believe a damn thing any of the candidates say.What do you guys do??
     
  6. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What do you guys do??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    For me, at this point, it's about voting for the lesser of two evils. Just like 2000... Bush wasn't the ideal candidate, but in my mind he was a shitload better than Gore.
    Both Bush and Kerry have their shining faults, but I personally believe that Bush is The Man at this time.
     
  7. potato76

    potato76 1/2 ton status

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    Thats what makes this thing kind of shady though doesnt it?? We have to result to voting for the one that sux the least!? I know its pretty much always been that way and always will be but then whats the point of voting?Like i said im already registered and will vote but i just dont see why we do it anymore.most repubs vote republican and most dems vote democrat then there is everyone else who votes for the one that doesnt suck as bad as the other guy.Why vote for the person when mostly everyone votes for a certain party.Im young and dumb what do i know. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gifNot trying to be a i dont vote person but like i said i dont see a reason behind it anymore and i dont like doing things for no reason much.
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    What really sucks is that a TON of Republicans are actually Libertarian, and a whole lot of Democrats are as well. Add in the people like me that are neither Republican or Democrat and you have yourself a real solid percentage of the population. Unfortunately people are sheep and will think that if they don't vote R or D, they're throwing their vote away. If everyone voted the way they actually feel then 3rd party candidates would actually have a chance.
     
  9. potato76

    potato76 1/2 ton status

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    That just about sums it up.Makes it hard to be confident at the polls.
     
  10. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    So find a party that you agree with and vote for it on principle.
     
  11. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What really sucks is that a TON of Republicans are actually Libertarian, and a whole lot of Democrats are as well. Add in the people like me that are neither Republican or Democrat and you have yourself a real solid percentage of the population. Unfortunately people are sheep and will think that if they don't vote R or D, they're throwing their vote away. If everyone voted the way they actually feel then 3rd party candidates would actually have a chance.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed 100%.

    I'm liberitarian, no problem admitting it. I like freedom.
     
  12. offroadcowboy

    offroadcowboy 1/2 ton status

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    Not to hijack... but if anyone is interested in a alternative party's check these guys out Constitution Party I believe they used to be the Tax Reform Party. Also the Libertarian Party Libertarian Party These guys are pretty similar .They differ on drugs, and immigration.Check them out if you want some more choices.If enough people voted their conscience or beliefs and not for "the lesser of two evils" then we would likley have a 3 or 4 party system insted of 1.5 .
     
  13. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    My problem with the constitution party is that they are hard-core religious right. They actually contradict themselves in their platform, saying how the constition is everything and then talking about God's law. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

    Check out the American Patriot Party, they're really new so it's hard to say where they're going, but it looks like they have the right idea. There are some real crackpots out there forming political parties.

    http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm
     
  14. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    If enough people voted their conscience or beliefs and not for "the lesser of two evils" then we would likley have a 3 or 4 party system insted of 1.5 .

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I DO vote with my conscience and beliefs. Unfortunately, we few who do this are vastly outnumbered by the sheep who are lifelong D's or R's who, lacking the intelligence or balls to think for themselves rather than rely on carefully spoon-fed propaganda, pull the lever (or flip the switch, or punch the card, or whatever...) for "all Democrat" or "all Republican". Thus, we're often left with "the lesser of two evils". For example, 2000. I wasn't real fond of Bush, but he won the primaries and got the endorsements, so he's the R choice. I couldn't bear the thought of 4 more years of Klinton-style "leadership" under Gore, but again, he won the primaries and endorsements so he's the D choice. I personally wasn't real thrilled with the third-party candidates, so I ended up voting for Bush.
    Now, before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I'm not painting ALL lifelong D's or R's with the "sheep" brush. But there's enough of them out there to really screw things up. So hey, if the shoe fits, WEAR IT! If it does not fit, you must... uhh... well, not wear it.
     
  15. offroadcowboy

    offroadcowboy 1/2 ton status

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    shaggy thanks for the link. I will be checking them out.

    As far as the Constitution Party yeah they are pretty religious but i'm not sure that they contradict themselves as they believe that the Constitution,Bill of Rights, and the society they originally created here was based on gods law (the bible)as well as englands common law which was also interpeted from the bible to some degree. I just feel that there need to be more legitimate choices for the American people and that those choices have an equal voice when it comes to election time.Unfortunantly its all about how much money you have and what groups you can get to believe your lies.

    An interesting post script is Michael Petrouka the Constitution candidate turned down federal matching campaign funds because he believes in less government and does not want to be a hypocrite by taking them.Whether you agree with them or not we need more candidates to act like this way.
    After looking at some of the partys on the web site you gave me it seems to me that if these (American Patriot Party,Constitution Party, and America First Party) partys got together and worked out their differences they would be a pretty powerful group.They seem to all have pretty similar positions.
     
  16. Capman2k

    Capman2k 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Here is how i feel about politics.I have way too many things going on in my life to try and figure out who to vote for and all that.I cant say that id feel comfortable voting for any specific president because i dont really know how they are going to run things.I just know my opinions and what they SAY they will do.Well if I trusted everything i heard id would have lost money in enron.So how do you base these dicisions??I honestly dont know.Im not saying i dont vote or wont vote because i will. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gifI can easily vote the props cuz i know what they are all about.I can even vote some of the local positions,but i dont have the patience to sit and research which president to vote for.I also cant believe a damn thing any of the candidates say.What do you guys do??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This year is my first chance to vote for president... Of course, I don't know what the heck to look for either... All I know is everything I've heard come out of Mr. Kerry's mouth (not much) I haven't quite liked... Plus Bush has proved his worthiness to me in kicking asses that have long needed a good kicking... He needs at least another 4 years to keep the ass kicking going. /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif

    Of course, other than ass kicking, I'm pretty much oblivious to anything else that has been going on...
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    This is getting off the topic, but there are contradictions in the Constitution Party's platform, in my opinion. I may see it differently since I'm essentially an athiest (not really, but for the sake of this sort of thing I am).

    Their take on freedom of religion -

    [ QUOTE ]
    Our Constitution grants no authority to the federal government either to grant or deny the religious expressions of the people in any place. Both the First and Tenth Amendments forbid such tyranny.

    We call upon all branches of government to cease their attacks on the religious liberties of the people and the states, regardless of the forum in which these liberties are exercised.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This apparantly does not apply to their rligion, since they are obviously right, they are allowed to impose their beleifs on everyone else in the following examples.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Pornography, at best, is a distortion of the true nature of sex created by God for the procreative union between one man and one woman in the holy bonds of matrimony, and at worst, is a destructive element of society resulting in significant and real emotional, physical, spiritual and financial costs to individuals, families and communities. We call on our local, state and federal governments to uphold our cherished First Amendment right to free speech by vigorously enforcing our laws against obscenity to maintain a degree of separation between that which is truly speech and that which only seeks to distort and destroy.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Buhhh, wha? So the federal government should use to the right to free speech to ban the free speech of pornographers? They want this because their interpretation of their religion says pornography is bad? How does this make sense? It's completely contradictory in my opinion.

    One more -

    [ QUOTE ]
    The law of our Creator defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's all well and good, but once again it brings THEIR religion into it, the constitution doesn't say anything about who can and can't get married.

    I guess, for me, what it comes down to is that I feel that the government should not be allowed to regulate things that people do that do not affect other people. I don't impose my morality on other people, nobody shoule be able to impose their morality on me. By extension, other people should be able to persue their own happiness by doing what they want to do, so long as it doesn't affect me or mine. A party calling themselves the Constitution Party should be based on the Constitution and the Constitution alone, they shouldn't be interpreting it to reflect their own values.

    Therse aren't the only examples, just a couple that I remembered off the top of my head from reading through the platform a couple of weeks ago.

    To everyone - Please don't turn this into a debate about gay marriage or religion or pornography or whatever, this thread is off topic enough as it is; if anyone wants a debate on that stuff, start a new thread about it.
     
  18. potato76

    potato76 1/2 ton status

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    Its only my second time so i feel lost too and it just seems like chasing your tail.But hearing other opinions helps.At least im not the only one. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  19. offroadcowboy

    offroadcowboy 1/2 ton status

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    Shaggy you make some good points.I agree with the protection of free speech but if you look at the argument that even though I have the right to yell fire in a crowded public place or bomb on an airplane my speech can endanger lives which is irresponsible.So I no longer have the right to say that. Which is Censorship.Porno is not a religion so their point is that you can freely worship God,Buddah,your dog,the earth ect...
    There have been laws against obscenity for a long time.Thats why you have to be an adult to pose for and view pornography.That is not necessarily a religious view it is a societal view.
    [ QUOTE ]
    vigorously enforcing our laws against obscenity to maintain a degree of separation between that which is truly speech and that which only seeks to distort and destroy.

    [/ QUOTE ] I dont see the total censorship in this statement.I see they are asking for enforcment of obscenity laws and making a distinction between free speech and perverse speech which is harmful.Like I stated above is it not perverse to yell fire in a crowded public place if there is no fire.

    Pornography has been censored for a long time. No one is hurt by not being able to freely look at porno anytime ,anywhere,but people are hurt or affected every day by people who glorify porno because those people dont ask you or me,my wife or yours or our children if we are affected. They just pursue their happiness by molesting kids,raping women,degrading women as sexual objects,cheapening the act of love and procreation for instant sexual gratification.Not trying to convert you or argue with you just trying to share my point of view and most likley the point of view of a majority in the country.


    [ QUOTE ]
    A party calling themselves the Constitution Party should be based on the Constitution and the Constitution alone, they shouldn't be interpreting it to reflect their own values

    [/ QUOTE ]
    The courts do it everyday.There is no passage anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says "separation of church and state" but that is their interpretation based on their values. They also just recently ruled that child porn was protected by the Constitution as free speech.I would say that that affects me and mine.
     
  20. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    Most of your points I can sum up by reiterating that things shouldn't be illegal that do not affect other people. Once you start affecting other people then there's a problem. When you yell fire in a crowded theatre you affect others, same thing with people persuing happiness by raping and molesting.

    As for cheaping the act of love, well, go ahead and define *romantic* love for me in a way that 9 out of 10 people will agree, then we can talk about how one goes about cheapening it.

    As for the child porn being ruled free speech, show me the legislation. I think maybe your referring to a decision that says that drawings or CGI child porn is protected by free speech. I fully agree that that should be legal, because where is the vicitm? I mean, I don't want to look at it, but nobody is hurt by the act of drawing something, so if you make it illegal then you're essentially legislating creativity, and by extension - thought.

    You should know that when I discuss these things, I tend to discuss them at a very high level, meaning that viewpoints that I might defend are not neccessarily those that I hold. So don't go thinking that I'm some raping, FIRE shouting, fornicating, loveless child pornographer. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     

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