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Yet another injected K5 :) *update*

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by dyeager535, May 24, 2004.

  1. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Super Old Edit:

    Problem was not the MAF, it was a bad connection. One of the locking terminals on the ECM for the MAF had broken, and the pin would back away from the ECM randomly, just enough to give random contact, but not enough to notice just by glancing at it.



    **update update**

    Well, thanks to a super nice guy (Ryan B) my truck is now deemed "driveable"!

    Turns out my main problem WAS the MAF. Didn't really want to spend big dollars on one when you can't physically test the MAF (or not without an electrical bench anyways, the manual flow chart said bad MAF, but it was wrong before) and Ryan noticed what I was going through. He PM'd me, offered to sell me his old one (he's now MAP) at a really great price, including his old ECM. I should have just bit the bullet, but for $60-150 (and I couldn't find the $60 one locally, not easily anyways) I really didn't want to. From the shape the box was in that the original MAF was shipped in (with other stuff that was visibly broken) I should have figured the MAF was bad off the bat.

    Got it tonight, just couldn't wait, threw it in, cleared the code from the ECM, fired it up, and no code! No surging idle, no hesitation, nothing that it was doing while it was throwing the bad MAF code. Let it warm up/think about how it should run itself, and took it for a few spins around the block.

    If the 465 could be shifted faster, it might even be deemed quick lol. 35MPH in 1st gear, (lots to go, just not safe in this area) and it will bark the tires from about 15MPH. Not bad for a "mild" 350 I figure! Certainly better than my carb, even though that ran good. Front end actually starts to lift under accleration, the old 350 sure didn't do that.

    Still got some major chip tweaking to do, (still running on a 305 ECM) but I think it just might be ready for the Western US tour we plan on taking at the beginning of August. Will get it insured now, and start doing some test drives locally, eventually putting some serious miles on it to see what crops up after it gets more "broken in".

    As a side note, anyone else running the comp pro magnum (steel) full roller rockers and/or aftermarket roller lifters? This thing almost sounds like a diesel underhood (not so loud it's audible in the cab) with all the ticking going on. I'd suspect a bad lifter if it weren't equal on both sides of the engine, and sounded a bit different.


    *old update*

    If anyone cares, here's an update.

    No start condition solved. Pays to have a friend helping out...he noticed the remote coil was arcing, and although the service manual test "proved" it was an ECM fault, a junkyard test coil off of a 4.3 Astro (same part) fixed it.

    Took it out for a spin around the block (no plates on it) and she runs pretty good. Pretty sure I can "feel" the difference of having the computer think it's controlling a 305 though...tends to surge a bit while cruising slowly, and a bit of a "chuggle" when trying to accelerate from a low speed in 2nd gear.

    Lack of a cold start injector ('87 used, my setup doesn't) is also evident in the amount of crank time to start. The 2 engine revolution delay inherent in the 8 primary injector function on startup is pretty evident, takes a second of cranking (I think the carb started a bit easier) but it is reliable, always fires up after the same amount of cranking. Hot or cold, no difference in how hard it is to start.

    The new 3 core radiator EASILY keeps the engine cool. (straight water for now) During initial firing it got up to 210* (based on ECM coolant temp sensor readings) but now that the engine is broken in, and the coolant level is up to the top, it sits at 194* (195 t-stat) solidly.

    Still throwing MAF and EST codes, but I need to clear the codes and see if they come back. Some of the causes of those are likely to be the 305 vs. 350 issue.

    Combination for anyone following is 355, 1989 TPI setup off of a Camaro, (but 1987 ECM, no VATS) 64CC heads, "flat top" pistons (right around 9.2:1 CR) SDPC TPI base, Mild Crane Roller cam, (.454 max lift, 112* LSA) Comp Pro Magnum Roller rockers, and hedman elite headers.

    Got a set of Accell "make your own" plug wires, a neccesity IMO with the headers and TPI setup. Going to finish those up tonight.

    As soon as the codes are cleared, and I get the chip burning equipment, I will start on clearing up the 305/350 differences, lack of cold start injector, and the timing/fueling differences due to the engine setup.


    Just had to post to say that after all this time, my TPI setup finally ran!

    Of course, after the initial engine firing (9.2:1 350 w/Vortec heads, Vortec TPI base, Camaro MAF TPI with no cold start injector, Crane Roller cam, Comp Roller Rockers) I had to shut it down because of a spark plug that was leaking compression. (note to self: pull plugs when test-fitting headers, they don't like being bumped)

    Also decided to fix the brand new radiator that was leaking fairly well because of an errant drill bit (hey, that wood didn't slow down the bit at all!) before firing it back up. Anyways, fix all that, now engine won't fire. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Wasn't nearly as cheerful at the time of course.

    Needed new battery, got that, need new plug wires, going to make my own because of length and the way I want to route them, after those are in place, try to crank it up one more time, if that doesn't work, troubleshooting time.

    But I can say that even with one bad cylinder, it settled into a fairly smooth idle no problem, and throttle response once off of idle was fairly impressive, no lag whatsoever, and this ECM is off of a 1987 305. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Really going to be interesting to see how she runs with all 8 cylinders working correctly. After I get it running again, going to start burning PROM's until it's running as good as possible. With the Vortec heads, bigger cam, and 350 instead of 305, there should be plenty of performance to be gained from PROM mods.

    Pics here of random stages of the engine build/install, have to take some more once I get the wiring all tidied up.

    random TPI pics Don't be surprised if the site gets locked down, they don't allow much bandwidth for free. It comes back up in a day. Oh, and the picture of the engine that has "EVIL" on it is in reference to exhaust manifolds, not how bad I think the engine is lol. Oh, and I can't let anyone think that I acually used zipties to hold the fuel lines in place...those were used for mockup until I could find metal to make the brackets shown in some of the other pictures.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  2. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    looks good /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
     
  3. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Sweeet.

    You're running MAF? What are you doing to burn your own prom? what software and what are you using as a starting point like a stock chip and playing with it from there?
     
  4. 84gmcjimmy

    84gmcjimmy 1 ton status

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Looks good. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/bow.gif
     
  5. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Congrats Dorian! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif Wait until you drive it! The first time I pulled out of the driveway after the TPI swap I lit up the 35's. It wouldn't do that with the previous Q-Jet 350 unless I did a neutral drop. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif
     
  6. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Yep, MAF setup.

    Just like the Vortec heads, had I thought further in advance, or just waited, I wouldn't have used them (likely) nor would I have gone MAF. MAF just makes it a real pain for routing the intake, especially if you want cold air like I did. That rubber elbow alone off the throttle body was $19 IIRC, and I still ended up using the stock intake pieces off of a Firebird, which added some more cost. Good thing about MAF is that it is a bit more "adaptable" of engine mods without chip burning, but MAP is a lot cleaner of an install, perhaps someday I'll convert, since the plenum I have is setup for it. Especially if the MAF ever fails.

    For the PROM, I've got a buddy that already has the tools to do it (pocket programmer) I just have to get an EEPROM for the physical part of the chip burning process.

    WinALDL is a standard for logging, but apparently some of the other software out there (Craig Moates) will work with 8192 baud, and apparently the ECM I have ('165) will do either 160 or 8192 baud...you get a much better picture of what is going on when you log the data stream since there is so much more data coming in every second. Something like one "frame" per second with 160 baud, and 10 per with 8192. Guess I'll get to test my ALDL cable finally!

    The chip I've got in it now is an ABWB (broadcast code) which is a 3.08 '87 F-body with 305 and manual trans. Probably start out by just logging this one, once its running consistently, seeing how far things are off in this PROM, and if way off, maybe start with something like a 3.42 geared 350 manual car PROM of the same year. Quite a few of the PROM's are online, so it's just a matter of downloading them, modifying if you want, and burning them to the PROM.

    For the actual burning software I had checked out tunerpro free (back when it was GMECM Edit I think) and played around with modifying some of the PROM's "virtually". This project has taken so long though, I need to re-learn a lot of that stuff.

    Injector values in the PROM for sure are wrong since mine are from a 350, but in neutral, didn't seem to make one bit of difference to the engine. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't expect much major changes needed though...for sure the injectors, perhaps fan on/off temps since engine was running at 204* according to the ECM, and likely need to pull a fair bit of timing out, since the Vortec heads should be happier with a lot less than an '87 305. I'll also need to go in and edit the cannister purge and AIR stuff, as I want to get highway mode running eventually. Hopefully before my trip this summer.

    First things first though, need to get it running again!
     
  7. K5MONSTERCHEV

    K5MONSTERCHEV 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    NICE MAN!! /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif I am anxiously awaiting to start ine this weekend.

    What did you do for a harness?

    [ QUOTE ]


    Injector values in the PROM for sure are wrong since mine are from a 350, but in neutral, didn't seem to make one bit of difference to the engine. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't expect much major changes needed though...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Im pretty sure the actual injectors are differrent from 305s to 350s.
     
  8. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Looks good! Seems more and more guys are going to injection. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    [whine] I want to be injected [/whine] /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif
     
  9. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Harness is stock. Only "extra wires" in my case are the AC, alternator wiring, AIR, and EVAP. I probably would have kept Evap at least had I got all the parts for it.

    Wiring is ugly in my case (even though I tried) because the length is all wrong...I have way more length in the main harness than I need, but the way the camaros are setup the lengths in some places are too short. I could probably rewire it now, (oh please no) because the hardest part is figuring out how much length you need, without actually having everything hooked up....I mocked it all up of course, but things change when all the bolts are in place. Coil setup alone was a wiring pain, since the coil bracket won't fit Vortec heads. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Of course relocating it means lengthening wires, and routing them differently, and so on.

    The more I think about it, the more I want to redo the wire routing, but that will still wait until the thing runs right.

    Yes, injectors are different, thus my setup thinks it has 19lb/hr injectors when they are more likely 24lb/hr, etc., just one thing more to change in the PROM.
     
  10. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    Re: Yet another injected K5 :)

    Very cool ! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    I was beginning to wonder if you were going to ever get it done.......... /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  11. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]


    Pretty sure I can "feel" the difference of having the computer think it's controlling a 305 though...tends to surge a bit while cruising slowly, and a bit of a "chuggle" when trying to accelerate from a low speed in 2nd gear.

    Lack of a cold start injector ('87 used, my setup doesn't) is also evident in the amount of crank time to start. The 2 engine revolution delay inherent in the 8 primary injector function on startup is pretty evident, takes a second of cranking (I think the carb started a bit easier) but it is reliable, always fires up after the same amount of cranking. Hot or cold, no difference in how hard it is to start.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sweet dude. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
    How much was your gas tank filled up when you drove it around the block? The first couple days i drove my tpi setup i experienced the same kind of chuging and surging or starving for fuel... that would be the fuel pickup in my tank when it gets down below about 1/3 tank of gas.
    You might want to fill the gas tank all the way up and see if this problem still exists. /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif
    I also had to play around with my timing a bit at first to get the (EST) code 42 to go away.. i had my timing too retarded at first.


    I'm running an '88 setup without the cold start injector also. I think the eprom burned for me is supposed to enrichen the mixture for cold starting through the 8 injectors.. It does take a few cranks to start up, maybe a bit longer than when i had my carburator.. but it always starts up and runs great. /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif

    Went wheeling in the sand dunes last weekend with my injection and it runs just awsome! No sputtering or stalling anymore whooo hoooo!
    I did get a check engine light and a code 43 while wheeling. (detonation sensor error) i thought maybe it was detecting a knock or noise from slamming around wheeling, but the next day i caught the problem.. the knock sensor wire moved up against the hot headers and shorted the wire, throwing the code. /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  12. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    As to fuel level, it should be about 8-12 gallons. I live in a perfectly flat neighborhood, so along with the baffled tank, I think I'm good to go...when I've starved other vehicles of fuel (not FI mind you) the resulting bucking was very violent...this is a pretty gentle surge.

    However, after clearing the codes in the computer (high MAF at startup and EST) and restarting it today, it was quite a bit better. The MAF code came back immediately, but apparently this is a "problem" for the MAF vehicles. One of the changes made by many burning their own PROM's is the startup MAF gm/sec...so we'll see about that one. Driving it around the block without an EST code seemed to really make a difference. Even better throttle response, and almost no idle "hunting" after running it around the block a few times.

    Check engine light was on constantly for the MAF code, and fan 1 was on constantly, so I know it's STILL not running correctly. I need to do some datalogging to see if the MAF is actually showing valid/believable values or not.

    I was darn sure to route my wires away from any source of heat. Knock sensor wiring follows the starter wiring, over the intake, down the front, and underneath along the pan rail.

    Couple of new pics:

    new 1

    url=new 2 ]new 2[/url]

    Still not finished/happy with the wiring as it is (witness the yellow wire which is the secondary fan switch wire I haven't finished due to lack of shrink wrap tubing) but I'm getting there. Minor stuff, short of the bad fuel tank sending unit I have to replace. Rrr.
     
  13. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    Looks good. Glad to see you got it running. You will enjoy it once it is running right. Congrats.

    Harley
     
  14. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    final(?) update up top
     
  15. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I'm surprised to see that you prefer MAP over MAF. I kinda wish they made TBI with a MAF so I could build something with a bit of a cam that wouldn't make the computer go nuts.
     
  16. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    I really can't comment on the MAP setup more than I have...since I'm not running it, I'm not sure what all it is capable of.

    It did appear that MAF is more of a "slap it on and go" affair, but I can tell from my datalogs and what not that the system needs some tuning. MAP would be the same way, but more problems initially.

    In my case MAP would be no problem...112* LSA on a "low" lift cam wouldn't pose any problems. MAF just adds its own difficulties...expense to replace, harder to plumb for cool air, more clutter, less advanced ECM, and so on.
     
  17. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]
    **update update**

    Well, thanks to a super nice guy (Ryan B) my truck is now deemed "driveable"!

    Turns out my main problem WAS the MAF. Didn't really want to spend big dollars on one when you can't physically test the MAF (or not without an electrical bench anyways, the manual flow chart said bad MAF, but it was wrong before) and Ryan noticed what I was going through. He PM'd me, offered to sell me his old one (he's now MAP) at a really great price, including his old ECM. I should have just bit the bullet, but for $60-150 (and I couldn't find the $60 one locally, not easily anyways) I really didn't want to. From the shape the box was in that the original MAF was shipped in (with other stuff that was visibly broken) I should have figured the MAF was bad off the bat.

    Got it tonight, just couldn't wait, threw it in, cleared the code from the ECM, fired it up, and no code! No surging idle, no hesitation, nothing that it was doing while it was throwing the bad MAF code. Let it warm up/think about how it should run itself, and took it for a few spins around the block.

    If the 465 could be shifted faster, it might even be deemed quick lol. 35MPH in 1st gear, (lots to go, just not safe in this area) and it will bark the tires from about 15MPH. Not bad for a "mild" 350 I figure! Certainly better than my carb, even though that ran good. Front end actually starts to lift under accleration, the old 350 sure didn't do that.

    Still got some major chip tweaking to do, (still running on a 305 ECM) but I think it just might be ready for the Western US tour we plan on taking at the beginning of August. Will get it insured now, and start doing some test drives locally, eventually putting some serious miles on it to see what crops up after it gets more "broken in".

    As a side note, anyone else running the comp pro magnum (steel) full roller rockers and/or aftermarket roller lifters? This thing almost sounds like a diesel underhood (not so loud it's audible in the cab) with all the ticking going on. I'd suspect a bad lifter if it weren't equal on both sides of the engine, and sounded a bit different.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Rock on dude!!! /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
    Thanks for the kind words.. Really Glad i could help you out! I had no use for my MAF sensor, ecm or chip, since i converted my tpi to speed density... When i saw you were having problems, it would be bad karma if i didn't offer up my MAF parts sitting around in the garage never going to be of any use to me. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
    I'm happy to hear your truck and fuel injection is 'drivable' now, and the MAF sensor took care of the problems. Very cool.
    Rock on fellow injected K5 brother! /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  18. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    In my case MAP would be no problem...112* LSA on a "low" lift cam wouldn't pose any problems. MAF just adds its own difficulties...expense to replace, harder to plumb for cool air, more clutter, less advanced ECM, and so on.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Definitely agreed there.
     
  19. K5MONSTERCHEV

    K5MONSTERCHEV 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I'm surprised to see that you prefer MAP over MAF. I kinda wish they made TBI with a MAF so I could build something with a bit of a cam that wouldn't make the computer go nuts.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    How radical of a cam? You can run MAP with a cam. S&P can burn you a chip aslong as you have at least 15" of vaccuum, I had 16" and was very skeptical(didnt feel like takin forever to get the chip just right). I Havent gotten to work on it and actually drive a whole tank of gas through it, but s0 far it seems like the chip is fine, and I wont have to burn another one.
     

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