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454 or 500 cadde ???????

http://www.krepower.com
http://www.Nunzi-pontiac-experts.com


Those are the best sources I found for Poncho Performance and Race Parts.

-Mikey
1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
<a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch</a>
 
Caddy 472, completely rebuilt, received new bearings (incl. cam bearings), cam (Lunati), lifters, Edelbrock intake, seals, valve seals, guides, rings, water pump, frost plugs, motor mounts, etc. Basically everything new 'cept for pistons (and the std stuff like rockers, push rods, and the actual valves). 100k miles on the engine when I tore it apart, not enough wear to warrant new pistons (0.004 cylinder wear according to shop). Everything cleaned, hot-tanked, etc. before build-up. Heads shaved 0.030, compression up around 10:1, new vaccuum lines, PCV valve, etc. Switched to rear sump pan. Rebuilt the Caddy TH400 w/ 4wd output shaft, stage II shift kit, new seals, etc. that it needed. New HD torque converter. Used 4-core radiator, fan shrowd, new hoses, block heater. Complete spare 472 engine, complete spare transmission, another spare set of heads. Nearly complete spare Chevy TH400 (minus the output shaft). Complete working propane system. Complete spare working propane system (minus tanks). Bolted into my Blazer. Total cost, running incl. new belts, plugs, wires, and paint, $2215US (n/c beer). What does that BBC 502 (minus the trans) cost, again? Could I do it again for that price? Nope, but close to it, I could.

I picked a Caddy 'cause after collecting hot-rod and engine build-up magazines for over a decade, one thing came very clear: the Caddy's will generally develop 100ft-lbs torque more, and 1000rpm less, than the equivalently built BBC. And usually for less.

(That price doesn't include my custom dual T-case and its crossmembers, though, but does include cost of building the motor mounts).

--Rob
 
I never said it could'nt be done or that anybody should not do it. Personally I would not, not even as cheaply as you havdone it Rye. On the other hand you have a very cool trick motor that wont be like every other kid on the block and I hope you have s--tloads of fun with it. You have definately subverted the accepted paradigm. However, I am gonna laugh my a$$ off if you twist that transfer-case up:) lol Besides the only reason it looks so cheap is you left out the beer Lol thats like riggin the game :)

Subvert the accepted paradigm.
 
Hummm.... I see my favourite engine is spoken about in here, the sbc 400
smile.gif
The stock rodlength in 400´s is 5.565". Same deckheight as a sbc 350, which means pistons designed for a stock 400 setup (3.75" stroke and 5.565" rods) also works in a 377 mill (3.48" stroke and 5.7" rods). The reduced swept volume will of course decrease compression, so stock 400 pistons might not be the best choice for your next 377
laugh.gif
.... well, unless 7.5:1 compression is your thing
smile.gif
. Ok, I´m done now...

/Andreas

406cui of pure sh*t
smile.gif
 
response to:

"Subvert the accepted paradigm"

WTF!!!!!

ok, mr. big words, law student. fancy talk like that has no place here. yes, i'm eluding to your aforementioned post in which you digressed into unacceptable paradigum smacks. come on! this is a blazer forum! so if we are to subvert the accepted then doesn't that mean we should put different motors in our rigs. are caddys the paradigm or are sbcs the paradigm? i'm confused.




<font color=blue>American Pie 2-"Have you seen my flute?" "Yeah, I stuffed it in your box."</font color=blue>
 
To each his own. Thats all I have to say. If caddy is your thing, thats cool. I have alot of respect for people like Donovan who can run these engines hard. As for me, it's BBC all the way. I Iike engines that bolt in without any specialty made parts (ie-motor mounts) and no hammer mods to your firewall have to be done (I have enough trouble getting a BBC to fit as it is). It's also true that a 4wd TH400 is stronger (thicker case) than 2wd TH400's thus a BOP TH400 case is weaker. GM made all 4wd cases thicker to handle the tcase load. Like the others have said, it's nice to open any Jegs/Summit catolog and find tons of aftermarket parts for your engine. Ebay is another favorite where I can find tons of BBC parts cheap. I've come across complete BBC's here in Denver for $200 and had a chance to take a complete running dually with a 454/TH400 for $500. It just depends on being in the right place at the right time. I really am pleased with my new 496 FI stroker setup. Plenty of torque. For now I have a computer similated dyno here:

www.off-road.com/chevy
 
BBC's are pretty hard to come by 'round these parts. That's partly why I went Caddy, too. Plus, the BBC's around here are all worn out from doing hard work. My Caddy will never see more than 4500rpm, though, your BBC will have to, to reach its potential.

The T-case is mounted in not 1, not 2, but 3 places, so no worries about twisting it off! I figure if the TH400 casing is good enough for the stock Caddy, it's good enough for mine. The T-case is mounted to minimize the torque load back through the casing.

I never count the beer on any of my projects 'cause if I did, I couldn't afford to do any of this! :-)

--Rob

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Ryeguy on 09/05/01 09:22 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Holy crap, I this thread is moving!!! Turn my back for 2 days...

Not much to lend here but another vote.

I love the Caddy 500 over all other engines I've driven. It's a powerful beast, takes some serious brutality, and still keeps pumping out power. Heck, even my dad's '92 Caddy 4.8 is a beast (granted the car is about 3000 lbs lighter than my truck. Still, that motor is more than it needs)...
454, I've only driven once, and I was not as impressed as when I drove the caddy 500. I was impressed, yes, but not like the caddy.
When I was researching dropping a caddy 500 in my truck, I figured my final cost would be under $1000, since the motor and tranny were coming free from my brother and I could get away without a rebuild. Mounts I figured on about $100, and various brackets, etc. Tranny mods I figured would hurt the budget most, switching in a 400 4x4 out shaft and new TC adapter.

I have heard, and only heard, dont' jump all over me for this, that the Caddy 500 is very sensitive to oil pressure so definately give it a new pump and higher pressure. Also, (still under the "I've heard" disclaimer) you would be better off during a rebuild by overboring and line boring it, than you would with just a stock rebuild (don't say "duh", I just mean while stock still kicks arse, your money would be better spent machining it).

Anyway, just my .02. When time allows, I plan to dump in the Caddy components in my truck also.


Ratch
<a target="_blank" href=http://k5.8m.com>k5.8m.com</a>
**Ever stop to think... Then forget to start again?**
 
Oil pressure? Any motor is sensitive to that, but the Caddy doesn't seem to be any more sensitive. A friend has one in his CJ, and he's run it at 0 oil pressure, way overheated, etc. It just keeps going. The engine does need heavy weight oil (15w40 or 20w50) for the large bearings, though.

--Rob
 
That's just what I've heard heresy. Maybe it just means the Caddy motor can't last as long with low or no pressure, or maybe don't use stock pressure if you over bore it.

I was just thinking after re-reading the post that started this thread, whether you go 454 or 500, doesn't even a built 700r4 reach it's limit at around 400ft-lbs?? So even if you did go with a 454, you'd still probably want to upgrade (or downgrade per opinion) to a thm400 or sm465, right?

Ratch
<a target="_blank" href=http://k5.8m.com>k5.8m.com</a>
**Ever stop to think... Then forget to start again?**
 
Yep. I spoke to JET about that before I started building up the drivetrain. I had a perfectly good TH700R4 that I wanted to use, and they figured with the weight of the truck et. al. that it wouldn't live very long, not matter what I did. My options were either a TH400 or an L80E. The TH400 had the right bellhousing pattern, and I didn't have the budget to swing for an L80E, so that made the choice easy.

--Rob
 
Blue,

Sorry guy if you dont like my slogan. I wasnt really try to say what anyone should do I just stated my opinion of the situation. I am sorry it does'nt agree with yours, but if I did, then whose paradigm would we have to subvert. Yes, I am confused too. So yes I still think that the cad is garbage at least for the sake of this argument and to anyone who enjoys this as much as I do, I still think the chevy is better and no argument on anybodys part is going to change that. No matter how many times you lower the collective standards of this forum by casting rude remarks about. In other words if you disagree with me fine, and please say so, but there is no reason at all to call names and act in an childish manner like this. Now if this can be the end of this, I'd really rather talk about blazers. That is what I joined this forum for. If you wish to continue with the previous subject please e-mail me.

Subvert the accepted paradigm.
 
hey dude i just think that you cant really believe that cads are junk, i just trying to get the point across that something must be wrong with you. maybe you just swollowed a bug or something,maybe your constipated. i dont know. but the facts show that cads can be BUDGET BUILT and make big h.p. and torgue~~!!!!
 
hey! I don't remember calling you any names- jerk off!!! J/K!! i was just messin with ya. (read acting childish) i like any motor that's tweeked to perform. It's all good, no hard feelins. Blazers rule!

<font color=blue>American Pie 2-"Have you seen my flute?" "Yeah, I stuffed it in your box."</font color=blue>
 
Having built both the 454's and the 500 Cad engines for heavy duty towing use in GM 3/4 &amp; 1 ton 4x4 trucks, I have learned some interesting things about both. Building either one is not cheap if built for heavy duty use. My last Cad 500 cost me about $3000 for parts and machine work. It developed enough torque to pull a 29' trailer (6500#) over most mountain passes in high gear at 65-70mph. Fuel mileage was about 8-9mpg. My last 454 was built at the cost of about $3000 and could pull as well as the Cad did but at less fuel mileage and higher RPM to make the same power. Don't get me wrong, they both were good engines and if I were to do it again, I would lean towards the Cad engine mainly because it could do it so well at low RPM's. If you look at the internals of both engines, you'll soon have a healthy respect for the Cad engine. Very well built with lots of beef in the bottom end. Crank looks like it belongs at home in a diesel. The 454 was good, no mistake about it, but not as good as the Cad was on low end torque.

87 K5, D60 & 14FF, 5 sp & NP208 & 383 stroker. Build it Bulletproof and take it fishing!
 
WOW!!

This post brought out both the best and worst in everyone that posted in it!

My opinion is:

Mike Reeh, I somewhat see your point. It's just too easy to pretty much bolt in a BBC and make your life so much easier. While the other engines might have somewhat of a wow factor or a small performance gain, a BBC can do whatever you want it to do unless you're just obsessed with numbers and need to achieve something.

As many of you know, I have a 305 in my truck. It's mildly built up and I like it. I have enough power for my needs and I don't feel the need for any more. Some of you may think that otherwise, that more power for you'd be necessary. This motor in particular has done everything I've wanted it to do and runs every day, so I haven't complained one bit about it.

For some people they just need to either be different or squeeze just that last bit of torque out of an engine. I say, to you guys, enjoy yourself. Some of that stuff sounds like a real PITA and you guys are getting yourself into something I'd never attempt.

Just about any engine can find its way into our trucks, but personally, I'm with Mike Reeh. I wouldn't install and engine in my truck that wouldn't bolt to the tranny. As long as it's a Chevy V8, it might make its way under my hood one day.

While I realize that Buick, Cadilac, and Pontiac all have motors that could put out an astounding amount of torque and be great for my application, I feel that the simplicity of using a Chevy motor makes it worth it more to me. I'm not after numbers, and I don't want to spend my life in the garage. If I wanted more cubic inches, I'd get a BBC and be done with it. If you want to build up something else and do it, good for you.

It is true that if built right, other motors besides Chevy motors would be ideal in our application, but I've got news for anyone who hasn't built many motors--component selection is far more important. If everything is matched correctly, even something that shouldn't work that well will work far better than you expected. I believe that's the only reason my 305 was worth putting in my truck. Everything is matched and built for the application, so it works well.

Really the best engine for you is the one that you can make work the best. Component selection and tuning is far more important than who makes your motor or what its actual numbers are. Getting the power to the ground is far more important.

If you guys really want to adapt motors all the time, my personal opinion is to buy a FORD!! They've got three motors with the same cubic inch displacement, all with different bellhousing patterns. They'll make your life, "fun" from your point of view.

I'm certainly not slamming anyone who'd attempt to put something other than a Chevy motor in their Chevy truck, I'm simply saying that with good component selection, a Chevy V8 of some kind that's built good for a truck will yield more than enough performance and probably save time and money when installing it.

But, to each his own, whatever floats your boat, trips your trigger, or, in this case, turns your crank is fine with me.

Want Pontiac, Buick, Ford, Caddy, or even MOPAR power in your truck? Good luck! I hope it turns out great!

Tim
'84 Chevy K10, lifted, loud, fast, and 3/4 ton axles
 
Everyone seems to want to get twisted up w/ makes. For two minutes who cares who makes it!!!! In the late 60's everyone became so centered on make, but now look at the rodders back in the 40's and 50's and you'll see a ton of cross breading... especially Mopar and Chevy engines in a Ford bodys.

Basically this post can be summed up in one word... STROKE. The new buzz of the past few years has been stroker motors... most specfically the 383 Chevy motor. Low and behold you stroke a motor and you get more cubic inches... yeah that's great, but to keep it simple here when you see the word stroker or stroked you can think of one thing.... TORQUE! Low end power! Now if stroked means torque... obviously destroked (377) is more of a top end, higher rpm motor. Well with this said, basically motor fundamentals wise you can say the stroke is going to play a huge role in your torque curve. The whole stroker motor was designed or came up with to make more torque w/ less cubic inches. (For those of you not familar with the history here.... a few years prior to the stroker motor talk, torque was the rage). Now right as some of you are going, "what are you babbling about Mikey?", take a look at Twiz's list of bores and strokes. Look at the 454 and 502 BBC's 4.00 stroke. Now look at the Pontiac 455 and Caddy 500 (also the Olds 455 and Caddy 472). The Pontiac has a 4.21stroke and the Caddy has a huge 4.304. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out exactly what Ryeguy and Sparky said... These motors are going to make more torque at a lower rpm... also add into it that both of these motor weigh less then a 454
cool.gif
. So to make it simple... what you have here are CHEAP STROKERS w/ NO MACHINE WORK! Factory GM partrs that can be found at junkyards for those who look hard enough. The main and only real draw back is parts supply for a huge motor guy. I'm not a machinist and not sure exactly what the stock caddy heads can make power wise, but it sounds like 600 hp is obtainable w/ little work to the stock head. That is more then enough power for any street/strip car, none the less 4x4 truck.

Being a Poncho guy for many moons now, I've seen the same evolution that is going on w/ the Caddy motors now, happen to the 455. Now history had it that as soon as Edelbrock came out w/ some aftermarket aluminium heads... the motor took off. Next you will probably see the Olds and Pontiac 350 which has a bit longer stroke then a 350 SBC (But it isn't as big of difference as the Pontiac and caddy motors, but aftermarket heads are already avaiable
smile.gif
).So to sum it all up... this is basic engine theory here... not whose name is on the motor. Personally I see these motors in a vehicle and I go "this dude knows his $#@!". Why pay the extra money for machine work and such to a 454 to make a 496 Stroker (an awsome motor... Just sold mine about 6 months back) when you can search a little and most likely find a "factory" stroker hidden away in some big boat of a caddy or fullsize Pontiac? Now you might ask why I went 496... well when you want to run 10's and or mega hp and nitirous you find that stoke parts usually don't hold up too well, thus the BBC makes life much easier. A call to Crower, JE, and Brodix has you pretty much set to rock!

The main down sides of a Caddy interms of a Blazer motor would be the motor mounts and BOP tranny. I have hear the adapter plates are a real no no, but I don't have any real world experience with them nor knows anyone who has.

-Mikey
1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
<a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch</a>
 
Good point about the stroke Mikey - exactly why straight 6's are such torque monsters for their displacement small bore and huge stroke. And I agree about make too - the coolest rod I've ever seen was a 37 Chevy with a 392 Hemi.

1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila Floor
<a target="_blank" href=http://pugsley.alloffroad.com>pugsley.alloffroad.com</a>
 
*Evil grin* A few of my buddies and I actually found a 392 Hemi is yard about 3 and a half hours from the cities here. We proply pulled the valve covers... hide them a few cars over in something crudy and kinda covered it up w/ stuff. My buddy Jeff has a 32 Ford street rod project and we all vowed to give him dibs. I called dibs on any 440 6pack intakes or 426 Hemis we find ROTFLMAO
laugh.gif
!! (Yeah right, I wish!). A guy in Minnesota Street Rod Association here has a 30's Chrysler Limo w/ a 392 Hemi... it won street rod of the year a few years back... Very cool!

-Mikey
1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
<a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/captcrunch</a>
 
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