Dirsuper submitted a new Build:
'72 K5 - Where do I go from here?
Read more about this build here...
'72 K5 - Where do I go from here?
Read more about this build here...
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CK5
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'72 K5 - Where do I go from here?
- Thread starter Dirsuper
- Start date
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- #onionclub
Let's see if this works....
A few more
Looks like the first 12 hours of my build thread. 
Welcome to the "Might As Well" club... Once you start peeling the rusty onion it's awfully hard to stop and ignore things that need attention.
My best advice is to spend a good amount of time thinking about the end result you want. It's impossible to make the correct decisions without it.
It seems like an obvious plan would be to pull the body off the frame, then clean the frame, axles and springs. You can sandblast it pretty cheaply, then either epoxy paint or powdercoat the frame... It's silly NOT to at least get the frame rust-free and well protected. It's the basis for everything else you will do.
If you don't want to get too crazy and show-quality, then you can clean up stuff like axles and springs and just give them a good rattlecan paint job. If you don't want to do all the body repairs yet, just plop it back down onto that full restored rolling chassis and drive it for a while. You can always pull the body again later on of you want to do a rotisserie repair on the body.... If not, you can do the bodywork knowing that the chassis underneath isn't hiding any mysteries or faults.
While you are doing the frame reassembly, you will need to decide if you want to replace fuel lines, brake lines and wiring... If it's in good shape, you can reuse it...if it's bad it's a LOT simpler to swap it with the body removed.
-G
Welcome to the "Might As Well" club... Once you start peeling the rusty onion it's awfully hard to stop and ignore things that need attention.
My best advice is to spend a good amount of time thinking about the end result you want. It's impossible to make the correct decisions without it.
It seems like an obvious plan would be to pull the body off the frame, then clean the frame, axles and springs. You can sandblast it pretty cheaply, then either epoxy paint or powdercoat the frame... It's silly NOT to at least get the frame rust-free and well protected. It's the basis for everything else you will do.
If you don't want to get too crazy and show-quality, then you can clean up stuff like axles and springs and just give them a good rattlecan paint job. If you don't want to do all the body repairs yet, just plop it back down onto that full restored rolling chassis and drive it for a while. You can always pull the body again later on of you want to do a rotisserie repair on the body.... If not, you can do the bodywork knowing that the chassis underneath isn't hiding any mysteries or faults.
While you are doing the frame reassembly, you will need to decide if you want to replace fuel lines, brake lines and wiring... If it's in good shape, you can reuse it...if it's bad it's a LOT simpler to swap it with the body removed.
-G
Thanks Greg. I distracted myself with a welding project this evening, and trying to figure out why my shop computer will not access this site. I'm using my IPhone right now. Crazy friggin computers!
So, taking body off frame, weld up some braces for the doors, put top back on (with bolts). Anything else to sweat? I am paranoid after reading the thread of the guy who spent a fortune getting everything right, only to have a twisted body/doors that would not close. That is my biggest fear. I can see my wife (or my buddies)........standing there....."You spent how much and have to trash it...."
So, taking body off frame, weld up some braces for the doors, put top back on (with bolts). Anything else to sweat? I am paranoid after reading the thread of the guy who spent a fortune getting everything right, only to have a twisted body/doors that would not close. That is my biggest fear. I can see my wife (or my buddies)........standing there....."You spent how much and have to trash it...."
Obviously there are many ways to attack it. But assuming that you are trying for an end product that is either a traditional restoration or mild restomod, most of the stock stuff gets reused on the rolling chassis... So it's just a matter of blowing it all apart....blasting off 40+ years of grime, rust and old paint. A fresh coat of paint on everything... Rebuild stuff like brakes, seals, etc. Getting a fully restored rolling chassis under the project will just make the rest of the work easier.
Of course setting the cab on a freshly restored frame (with a new set of body mounts) gives you a perfect platform for sheetmetal replacement and getting your panels lined up and gapped perfectly. The main thing with door fitment (the hardest part to get right) is to adjust the gaps using the body mount shims. Once they are good (with the original body panels) you can lock down the body mount bolts and then start cutting out rusty metal and carefully swap in the new panels while constantly checking your gaps to make sure they aren't getting away from you....
-G
One other detail that a lot of people don't know....
You want all of the front sheetmetal installed when you are gapping the doors... (fenders, hood, core support).
The core support mounts need to be part of the shimming process and the front fenders act like a lever pulling against the cowl and windshield post area. if those parts are missing, the weight of the doors will try to pull the cowl/windshield BACKWARDS. You might be able to get a decent door gap on the striker side, but when you go to install the front fenders and hood.... things could get awfully wacky and out-of-position.
-G
You want all of the front sheetmetal installed when you are gapping the doors... (fenders, hood, core support).
The core support mounts need to be part of the shimming process and the front fenders act like a lever pulling against the cowl and windshield post area. if those parts are missing, the weight of the doors will try to pull the cowl/windshield BACKWARDS. You might be able to get a decent door gap on the striker side, but when you go to install the front fenders and hood.... things could get awfully wacky and out-of-position.
-G
Great stuff. I am still at the infant stage. Prepping to pull body. Brace doors, bolt on top, buy beer, gather friends, what am I missing? What can I do to ensure no body twisting?
If you are attacking the frame first, don't pull the doors off the body yet. Just leave the whole thing intact (including hardtop) and lift it off and put it to the side on a large rolling cart / dolly type thing.
The biggest risk is when you start cutting out the torsion boxes and front foot wells to do rust repair. That is when things can get really floppy and twist out of position.
-G
Maybe I am delusional, but I think the rocker boxes are solid. I've tapped all along them with a small hammer, and ground down a few spots to bare metal, no signs of rust. Also, when I bought it there was some rust in the usual spots (top of windshields posts, and rockers), but it was minor. I took it to a local body shop which specializes in 'hot rods' and such and told the guy I wanted to address just that now, I'd be back for paint in a few years. The old man looked it all over and said I did not need to address it now, it's not bad and won't spread. I still had it done just for peace of mind.
So I am hoping I don't find any more rust. One thing that scares me is that at some point in it's life somebody rhino lined the inside floors (ironic since I Line-X'd the floors in my '88). So I don't know what is under there. However, from underneath, I don't see any rust/rot and everything seems solid. It's been in CA it's whole life, so maybe I got lucky in that regard.
That's good to know - I can just leave the doors in as braces. Will make it that much easier.
So I am hoping I don't find any more rust. One thing that scares me is that at some point in it's life somebody rhino lined the inside floors (ironic since I Line-X'd the floors in my '88). So I don't know what is under there. However, from underneath, I don't see any rust/rot and everything seems solid. It's been in CA it's whole life, so maybe I got lucky in that regard.
That's good to know - I can just leave the doors in as braces. Will make it that much easier.
If you've got a strong stomach, you can unbolt the square boxing plate on the rear of the torsion boxes and remove them to see what's going on inside....
Odds are that Rhino Liner was a "cover up" for rust in the footwell corners (EVERYONE has it) and around the cab support bolt... when you peek inside you will probably see either bad patches, or evidence that the Rhinoliner was dripping down through the floor and into the torsion box through pre-existing rust holes. Removing that Rhinoliner is going to be a major hassle.... I don't envy you.
My truck "looked" good from above and below when I first bought it, but if you check my early build thread photos you will see that the structural cab support (the one that's INSIDE the torsion box area) was completely rotted out on the bottom. Torsion boxes aren't sealed all that well at the front either, so you will probably see a bunch of mud, leaves and pine needles laying in there... holding moisture and causing trouble. The part called the "inner rocker" is usually horrible as well. A lot of guys will replace the outer rocker (under the door) since it's the part you see.....and it covers up all the damage that's a lot harder to fix.
Ultimately the only way to correctly deal with that area is to cut all the welds around the perimeter of the torsion box and drop them completely out of the way.... then deal with the rot in the cab support and "4 bolts" area... then lay in your sheetmetal floor sections to patch in from above. Torsion boxes get repaired and painted (inside and out) before getting re-installed..... during this phase, you DEFINITELY want to pull the doors and brace them with tubing so you can access the footwell areas more easily....
DISCLAIMER: This advice is based on the "Might As Well" philosophy of repair... you may not choose to go THAT deep into the repair, but by the time you invest yourself into even doing SOME of the rust abatement, it's going to feel silly to intentionally leave other rusty pieces buried deep in those footwells. Some people are totally happy knowing that they got 80% of the rust removed and improved the truck substantially... other people just can't stop thinking about the fact that there is rust hiding in their truck that they never removed. I'm THAT guy.
-G
I'll try to open them up tonight. Gotta be careful right now, apparently I tore my 'Bicipeal Tendon' (or something like that) this weekend. It was either when I picked up the transfer case and put it on the workbench, or when I tried to lower a 6.5'x5.5' steel welding table after I welded on stanchions for casters. Had buddies help stand it up, but when I was done with the wheels I was alone...figure, "Bah, can't be that heavy!" At the point of no return I felt this horrible movement in my right shoulder, promptly dropped it, and bent one of the stanchions in the process! Genius move all around! I'm not a welder, I'm a 'aspiring welder.' Doctor was really impressed! I swear he was mumbling something about screening for mental disorders.....my wife (RN) was pretty impressed as well!
I (probably like most of you) never learn......When you want to 'Git 'R Done', you just make it happen.
I felt like a loser out in the shop last night screwing around trying to get that friggin laptop to connect to this site.....using my left hand for the mouse (and beer).
I (probably like most of you) never learn......When you want to 'Git 'R Done', you just make it happen.
I felt like a loser out in the shop last night screwing around trying to get that friggin laptop to connect to this site.....using my left hand for the mouse (and beer).
DISCLAIMER: This advice is based on the "Might As Well" philosophy of repair... you may not choose to go THAT deep into the repair, but by the time you invest yourself into even doing SOME of the rust abatement, it's going to feel silly to intentionally leave other rusty pieces buried deep in those footwells. Some people are totally happy knowing that they got 80% of the rust removed and improved the truck substantially... other people just can't stop thinking about the fact that there is rust hiding in their truck that they never removed. I'm THAT guy.
-G
I'm glad you added that disclaimer. When I read through this thread I initially was thinking "I hope he doesn't read through Greg's thread, he'll never get this thing put back together!" Then I saw you had the first reply, and I gave up hope then and there.
To the OP, I would encourage you to think about how deep you want to get into this before you tear anything else apart. Greg has had his truck apart for several years now. He's doing an amazing job, but you have to decide how much time you want to commit to this project. Both your time and the truck's downtime. Lots of folks don't have the patience to watch a truck sit there in an undriveable state for years at a time. If you want perfection, tear it all down. If you want to be driving it next summer, choose your battles wisely. Greg's thread is a great resource either way.
You originally said that you don't want something that's too nice to drive. Body-off frame powdercoating is already getting into pretty serious build territory. Hard to resist the "Might As Well" philosophy when you're that far into something.
My own personal opinion:
Rust repair? What rust? That truck looks like it's never seen rust in its life. Not here, nor there, nor anywhere. But here in Michigan our perspective on rust is a little different.
Rust repair? What rust? That truck looks like it's never seen rust in its life. Not here, nor there, nor anywhere. But here in Michigan our perspective on rust is a little different.
I really appreciate all of the tips and insight. Still can't access this site from home (it's driving me crazy) so that's why I have been quiet.....at least it's an upside to being at work!
Hobbling around with a useless shoulder I was not able to accomplish anything of value this weekend. However, I did really look over the inside of the rocker boxes with a flashlight and a mirror. There is a little bit of 'rot' in a few areas, but we're talking about 1/2" or so spots (2 of them that I saw after about an hour of looking). I don't see anything to indicate the floorboards were rusted, and I don't see anything that I believe threatens (or will in my lifetime) the structural integrity of the frame or body.
I am definitely not able (lack of $$$ and skill) to do anything near what Greg is doing. Amazing work, I admire someone with those skills.
I have a pretty detailed list going right now of what I need, and what it is going to cost. I'm at almost $20k and that's not 'dreaming big.' From engine to final body work and paint, I've looked up everything on various websites, and about had a heart attack when I was done. I did estimate $5k for body/paint, that's one of the areas I really had to guess. That was crate engine (bottom end, $1450 from Summit) and all new (water pump, alternator, intake/carb, distributor, etc), new wiring harness, Vintage Air, lift kit, tires, gauge cluster, seats, console, carpet, bushings (all), radiator, and horn (the one 'The General' had). So, even doing that I'm probably looking at 1.5-2 years (realistically) simply because of funding limitations. The first thing I am buying is a two post lift. The more I lay under that thing and ponder all of that scraping/wire brushing/cleaning/painting.......the more I want the lift.
I'll keep reading, keep asking questions, and start s l o w l y making my way through this build.....won't be nearly as exciting as some of the threads I've read.
I appreciate all of the advice/lessons learned/wisdom that you guys share. Hopefully I can connect to this site from home at some point.
Hobbling around with a useless shoulder I was not able to accomplish anything of value this weekend. However, I did really look over the inside of the rocker boxes with a flashlight and a mirror. There is a little bit of 'rot' in a few areas, but we're talking about 1/2" or so spots (2 of them that I saw after about an hour of looking). I don't see anything to indicate the floorboards were rusted, and I don't see anything that I believe threatens (or will in my lifetime) the structural integrity of the frame or body.
I am definitely not able (lack of $$$ and skill) to do anything near what Greg is doing. Amazing work, I admire someone with those skills.
I have a pretty detailed list going right now of what I need, and what it is going to cost. I'm at almost $20k and that's not 'dreaming big.' From engine to final body work and paint, I've looked up everything on various websites, and about had a heart attack when I was done. I did estimate $5k for body/paint, that's one of the areas I really had to guess. That was crate engine (bottom end, $1450 from Summit) and all new (water pump, alternator, intake/carb, distributor, etc), new wiring harness, Vintage Air, lift kit, tires, gauge cluster, seats, console, carpet, bushings (all), radiator, and horn (the one 'The General' had). So, even doing that I'm probably looking at 1.5-2 years (realistically) simply because of funding limitations. The first thing I am buying is a two post lift. The more I lay under that thing and ponder all of that scraping/wire brushing/cleaning/painting.......the more I want the lift.
I'll keep reading, keep asking questions, and start s l o w l y making my way through this build.....won't be nearly as exciting as some of the threads I've read.
I appreciate all of the advice/lessons learned/wisdom that you guys share. Hopefully I can connect to this site from home at some point.
I'll be amazed if you can get a truck through body & paint for $5K.... I'd probably double that, unless you are doing almost all of the disassembly and prep yourself.
Materials costs for paint / primer and solvents have all gone up a LOT in recent years, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that those are $2000 just by themselves to paint something as large as a K5.
There's a funny reality with car/truck restoration. No matter WHAT vehicle you want to restore (I'm using that word deliberately to mean "make as new", not wildly modified) is going to take the average enthusiast about 3 years and $35,000....
For almost every project, the costs are similar. Paint and bodywork is a consistently expensive part of the job..... replacing worn components and rebuilding others are steps that also happen with predictable consistency. So it is not surprising that the final costs add up in similar ways.
Now, if you choose an oddball, or exceedingly rare vehicle where you don't have easy access to replacement parts.... then the prices all go up accordingly.
It's been my experience that guys who do the job right all the way through are into the restoration for that $35K (approx.) number.
Guys who claim to have done it for less either
A. Did a LOT of the expensive labor themselves and probably have access to body shop or machine shop services for free
B. Cut a lot of corners in ways that are obvious when you look at the final product.
C. Are lying about the true costs to avoid being murdered by their spouse.
I'm not trying to discourage you at all.... in fact, I think that the healthiest thing of all is to go into a big project like this with your eyes WIDE open so that you don't get blindsided by the costs later on. Obviously, you can do the work in stages and spread out the costs over several years... and the end-result should end up just as nice as someone who spent all the money in one fell swoop.
-G
Materials costs for paint / primer and solvents have all gone up a LOT in recent years, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that those are $2000 just by themselves to paint something as large as a K5.
There's a funny reality with car/truck restoration. No matter WHAT vehicle you want to restore (I'm using that word deliberately to mean "make as new", not wildly modified) is going to take the average enthusiast about 3 years and $35,000....
For almost every project, the costs are similar. Paint and bodywork is a consistently expensive part of the job..... replacing worn components and rebuilding others are steps that also happen with predictable consistency. So it is not surprising that the final costs add up in similar ways.
Now, if you choose an oddball, or exceedingly rare vehicle where you don't have easy access to replacement parts.... then the prices all go up accordingly.
It's been my experience that guys who do the job right all the way through are into the restoration for that $35K (approx.) number.
Guys who claim to have done it for less either
A. Did a LOT of the expensive labor themselves and probably have access to body shop or machine shop services for free
B. Cut a lot of corners in ways that are obvious when you look at the final product.
C. Are lying about the true costs to avoid being murdered by their spouse.
I'm not trying to discourage you at all.... in fact, I think that the healthiest thing of all is to go into a big project like this with your eyes WIDE open so that you don't get blindsided by the costs later on. Obviously, you can do the work in stages and spread out the costs over several years... and the end-result should end up just as nice as someone who spent all the money in one fell swoop.
-G
I see that Might-As-Well syndrome has set in. 'Dreaming big' is a matter of perspective. $20k seems like a pretty big dream to me. Starting from scratch and preemptively replacing all of the things in your list sounds like a big dream to me. Waiting 2 years for the funding to do everything fancy instead of keeping things simple (or doing one mod at a time) automatically excludes you from the 'small dreams' category. Requiring a two post lift is also quite different from how most of us do truck work.
I think that for most of the builds on here, the cost associated with a new crate engine would represent a significant portion of the budget. It's barely a drop in your bucket. So I think you are in the big leagues, dream-wise. I could be turning heads (in a good way) with that truck for $2k-$4k. Probably less.
So don't feel like you have to replace everything. Just replace what you actually want to replace. Go as far as you want, and don't worry about going any further. There is always more you can do to the truck, but that won't necessarily increase your enjoyment of it.
I offer this as just another perspective to consider, coming from one of the budget builders on here. Maybe I'll balance out Greg's perspective.
I appreciate the different perspectives. I'm probably right about in the middle.
The truck ran (pretty good) when I pulled it into the shop, so I know I could 'freshen it up' for very little money. However, the more I look at things, the more I am shocked it ran. The starter is packed with sand and small pebbles, the alternator looks like it was in salt water for two years, every bushing on the thing looks like it sat in the sun, in the middle east, for 20 years, etc.
We'll see. As soon as I can use my right arm again, I'm going to start rebuilding the front axle (bearings, races, bushings, etc) and when I am close to being able to afford the lift kit, I'll pull it out to clean it up/spray paint it. How those things go will probably play into my plan a lot. Realize, I have not done this stuff in a long, long, long time. I've spent hours and hours reading the manuals (the red and yellow ones)......
It's all good!
The truck ran (pretty good) when I pulled it into the shop, so I know I could 'freshen it up' for very little money. However, the more I look at things, the more I am shocked it ran. The starter is packed with sand and small pebbles, the alternator looks like it was in salt water for two years, every bushing on the thing looks like it sat in the sun, in the middle east, for 20 years, etc.
We'll see. As soon as I can use my right arm again, I'm going to start rebuilding the front axle (bearings, races, bushings, etc) and when I am close to being able to afford the lift kit, I'll pull it out to clean it up/spray paint it. How those things go will probably play into my plan a lot. Realize, I have not done this stuff in a long, long, long time. I've spent hours and hours reading the manuals (the red and yellow ones)......
It's all good!
Too many people spend too much money, buying excessive parts they don't need. You don't need to buy a water pump from Summit. Get a standard water pump from your local parts store. They worked for millions of other vehicles. You don't need an MSD distributor, a standard HEI will work just fine. There is soooooooo much money to be saved by not buying silly high dollar after market parts.
If your engine runs, run it.
Martin
If your engine runs, run it.
Martin
