454 = 685 pounds dressed.
50 more cubic inches minus 100 pounds over the front end is a big deal to me.
50 more cubic inches minus 100 pounds over the front end is a big deal to me.
CK5
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Cadilac motors
- Thread starter Taylor
- Start date
Wasatch K5
1/2 ton status
AJM Blazer,
I got those numbers from a link on post # 21 of this thread.
Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/P.../Engineid.html
Let's see; from the Hot Rod article: Headers, 12.5:1 Compression (that means new pistons), new valve springs, hotter cam, Edelbrock Intake, milled heads. That's a pretty serious list of modifications (and $$$). Personally, I don't want an engine with 12.5:1 compression. I want to be able to run good old 87 octane gas.
How does Hot Rod Magazine come up with their horsepower and torque numbers? (I honestly don't know.)
Obviously on a dyno, but do they have an AC compressor hooked up as well as an alternator, PS pump, and smog pump? What about exhaust? Open headers or through exhaust pipes, catalytic converter(s), mufflers and tail pipes. What about air intake? Are they using a velocity stack or are they using an air cleaner with an air filter?
The factories changed their way of rating horsepower for the 1972 model year. They changed to SAE net HP (rated at the flywheel) with all accessories, normal air intake and normal exhaust system.
In 1971 (before the change to SAE net) Cadillac rated their 500 cid engine at 365 hp @ 4,400 rpm and 535 ft lbs of torque at 2,800 rpm. Before the change they weren't required to have all the accessories attached and operating, they could run whatever exhaust and air intake they wanted.
Gentlemen:
I'm assuming that all of you are at least somewhat like me; there's a limit to what you can spend, and you want your hard earned dollars to go as far as they can; especially after the government gets their very sizable take.
Are the Caddy engine's good motors? Absolutely. For me the cost, and hassle factor, aren't worth it.
You want a manual tranny behind your Caddy? Unlucky! You have to have the crankshaft machined to accept a pilot bushing. Cheap? I don't think so! You have to remove the crankshaft from the block to have this done.
You want something different: Go for it!
I got those numbers from a link on post # 21 of this thread.
Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/P.../Engineid.html
Let's see; from the Hot Rod article: Headers, 12.5:1 Compression (that means new pistons), new valve springs, hotter cam, Edelbrock Intake, milled heads. That's a pretty serious list of modifications (and $$$). Personally, I don't want an engine with 12.5:1 compression. I want to be able to run good old 87 octane gas.
How does Hot Rod Magazine come up with their horsepower and torque numbers? (I honestly don't know.)
Obviously on a dyno, but do they have an AC compressor hooked up as well as an alternator, PS pump, and smog pump? What about exhaust? Open headers or through exhaust pipes, catalytic converter(s), mufflers and tail pipes. What about air intake? Are they using a velocity stack or are they using an air cleaner with an air filter?
The factories changed their way of rating horsepower for the 1972 model year. They changed to SAE net HP (rated at the flywheel) with all accessories, normal air intake and normal exhaust system.
In 1971 (before the change to SAE net) Cadillac rated their 500 cid engine at 365 hp @ 4,400 rpm and 535 ft lbs of torque at 2,800 rpm. Before the change they weren't required to have all the accessories attached and operating, they could run whatever exhaust and air intake they wanted.
Gentlemen:
I'm assuming that all of you are at least somewhat like me; there's a limit to what you can spend, and you want your hard earned dollars to go as far as they can; especially after the government gets their very sizable take.
Are the Caddy engine's good motors? Absolutely. For me the cost, and hassle factor, aren't worth it.
You want a manual tranny behind your Caddy? Unlucky! You have to have the crankshaft machined to accept a pilot bushing. Cheap? I don't think so! You have to remove the crankshaft from the block to have this done.
You want something different: Go for it!
You can drill the clearance hole in the crank with a hand drill.
I have done it. EASY! I hope you guys with caddy's aren't paying to have this done.
EDIT...
This was done with the engine installed in the rig.
I have done it. EASY! I hope you guys with caddy's aren't paying to have this done.
EDIT...
This was done with the engine installed in the rig.
MaxPF
1/2 ton status
A 502 has been available from GMPP for years. The basic 502HO gives 440HP and 515lb-ft of torque. If a guy already has a 454 block he can get a 496 stroker kit for a pretty reasonable sum of money, run the oval port heads with a suitable cam, and come up with similar figures. For a bit more cash outlay you can continue to grow displacement. Then there is the fact that BB head technology is far superior to anything available for a Caddy motor...
Every Flow chart I have seen puts the early 472/500 heads close to numbers with a LS6 head, so scrap the bad head idea. My '70 Eldo "950" heads are HUGE!
I am talking about the 450 horse BBC not the new SBC.
I am talking about the 450 horse BBC not the new SBC.
Remember all my numbers were from 8 years ago so there's been a LOT of new stuff come out for these Cadi's since then.
Also yes, Hot Rod gets all of their numbers from a dyno. Westech did the dyno stuff...if I recall correctly they do a lot of their dyno pulls.
I did skip a level. With the headers, decked heads, manifold, and the cam swap they got 383hp at 4700rpm and 517lb/ft at 3400rpm...for $1755 total including purchase of the block. The head swap added $70. Those were also stock Cadi heads and I know there's a few aftermarket heads now.
Anyone have the fairly recent issue of Hot Rod where they built the elephant motor 500 stroker for a guy's truck?
Oh, and the last picture of the Torque Pig! article is a guy drilling out the crankshaft for an input shaft with a drill and a lot of care...while it's in the engine.
Suffice to say I don't think any of us are going to convince any of the doubters of our differing sides.
Also yes, Hot Rod gets all of their numbers from a dyno. Westech did the dyno stuff...if I recall correctly they do a lot of their dyno pulls.
I did skip a level. With the headers, decked heads, manifold, and the cam swap they got 383hp at 4700rpm and 517lb/ft at 3400rpm...for $1755 total including purchase of the block. The head swap added $70. Those were also stock Cadi heads and I know there's a few aftermarket heads now.
Anyone have the fairly recent issue of Hot Rod where they built the elephant motor 500 stroker for a guy's truck?
Oh, and the last picture of the Torque Pig! article is a guy drilling out the crankshaft for an input shaft with a drill and a lot of care...while it's in the engine.
Suffice to say I don't think any of us are going to convince any of the doubters of our differing sides.
Wasatch K5
1/2 ton status
AJMBLAZER,
I just Googled "Cadillac performance cylinder heads". I found this link and an article about building a very high performance Caddy engine: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/index.html
Check it out, I think you'll enjoy it.
These guys got some very impressive numbers. But, and this is a major- leaque BUT, at what cost?
They used a custom made Billet crankshaft that they describe as "...going on a 165 hour 24 lb diet". They probably had well over ten grand in the crankshaft alone. Several other parts were custom as well. That is quantum bucks.
That is well above and beyond the scope of my projects.
I just Googled "Cadillac performance cylinder heads". I found this link and an article about building a very high performance Caddy engine: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/index.html
Check it out, I think you'll enjoy it.
These guys got some very impressive numbers. But, and this is a major- leaque BUT, at what cost?
They used a custom made Billet crankshaft that they describe as "...going on a 165 hour 24 lb diet". They probably had well over ten grand in the crankshaft alone. Several other parts were custom as well. That is quantum bucks.
That is well above and beyond the scope of my projects.
Eh, if I were to do it all I'd probably do was put an Edelbrock intake manifold on it, a truck Quadrajet, and then some headers and call it good. I'm pretty sedate in my driving and from where I sit with 160hp and the high 200's ft/lbs the stock numbers sound pretty good.
Maybe adapt a 454 TBI to it.
Around here Big Blocks are expensive...even worn out old ones.
Maybe adapt a 454 TBI to it.
Around here Big Blocks are expensive...even worn out old ones.
smalltruckbigcid
1/2 ton status
I can add fact about the engine in the PHR article...the builder is Richard Potter, and he's a friend of mine. I own that set of heads shown on that engine.
That engine got so many engine masters rules changed its not funny.
Drilling the crank...damn I drilled mine swinging from a cherry picker at the dyno. Its easy so don't pay someone.
My bottom end is a stock rering and it will turn 5500rpm no problem, but I wanted to prove you could build a caddy and to run with anything cheaper than a chevy. If I pull the shaft rockers off mine I have less than a grand in everything else and it does fine on pump pee 87. Mine dyno'd 395hp and 520tq...
That engine got so many engine masters rules changed its not funny.
Drilling the crank...damn I drilled mine swinging from a cherry picker at the dyno. Its easy so don't pay someone.
My bottom end is a stock rering and it will turn 5500rpm no problem, but I wanted to prove you could build a caddy and to run with anything cheaper than a chevy. If I pull the shaft rockers off mine I have less than a grand in everything else and it does fine on pump pee 87. Mine dyno'd 395hp and 520tq...
smalltruckbigcid
1/2 ton status
Here's a couple of dyno sheets from an iron headed airboat motor from today. TQ curve is almost flat from 2200 on....
resurrected_jimmy
1/2 ton status
Caddy motors are awesome but I've always wanted to put an Olds 455 in a K-5. Just to have something unique and different. they still present all of the same challenges getting it in there though.
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BILTIT
1/2 ton status
Yup, working on a pontiac 400 in my truck.
Wasatch K5
1/2 ton status
With respect to drilling the crank with a hand drill....
I was talking with a good friend of mine, who is a machinist of the highest caliber, and one of the most respected "gear guys" in the entire country. I mentioned this to him and to say "He laughed." is a major understatement.
A number of years ago he worked for a company and "reverse engineered" parts. That is: They would buy a part, and he would then carefully analyze the part and create a blueprint with material specifications, hardening requirements, dimensions and manufacturing tolerances.
His opinion on the crankshaft counter bore for the pilot bushing (bearing) was that it should be concentric with the main bearing journal centerline within .001 inches. Yes, that's one thousandth of an inch.
He thought, if you were incredibly lucky, a drilled hole would be within .020 inches. Furthermore, he said he would spec the hole as to be drilled and bored. Drilled holes tend to "wander", and they aren't very precise in terms of their actual size. By boring the hole after drilling, you straighten the hole and make the inside diameter more precise.
For those of you who decide to break out the hand drill and drill your crank rather than have it professionally machined:
After you get your rig together and you have an unknown "vibration", or your transmission doesn't shift smoothly, or six months from now when you're broken down beside the road because your transmission's input shaft bearing let go, Don't blame the transmission, or the clutch, or the flywheel. Look in the mirror at the "genius" who was too cheap and "knew better" than to have his crankshaft properly machined.
I was talking with a good friend of mine, who is a machinist of the highest caliber, and one of the most respected "gear guys" in the entire country. I mentioned this to him and to say "He laughed." is a major understatement.
A number of years ago he worked for a company and "reverse engineered" parts. That is: They would buy a part, and he would then carefully analyze the part and create a blueprint with material specifications, hardening requirements, dimensions and manufacturing tolerances.
His opinion on the crankshaft counter bore for the pilot bushing (bearing) was that it should be concentric with the main bearing journal centerline within .001 inches. Yes, that's one thousandth of an inch.
He thought, if you were incredibly lucky, a drilled hole would be within .020 inches. Furthermore, he said he would spec the hole as to be drilled and bored. Drilled holes tend to "wander", and they aren't very precise in terms of their actual size. By boring the hole after drilling, you straighten the hole and make the inside diameter more precise.
For those of you who decide to break out the hand drill and drill your crank rather than have it professionally machined:
After you get your rig together and you have an unknown "vibration", or your transmission doesn't shift smoothly, or six months from now when you're broken down beside the road because your transmission's input shaft bearing let go, Don't blame the transmission, or the clutch, or the flywheel. Look in the mirror at the "genius" who was too cheap and "knew better" than to have his crankshaft properly machined.
smalltruckbigcid
1/2 ton status
Darn I wasn't going to tell him that. That way he could feel superior to those of use running a caddy
Darn I wasn't going to tell him that. That way he could feel superior to those of use running a caddy
I hear ya! Just trying to keep the misinformation down to the minimum. There are a couple guys on here that have caddy motors and are considering the swap so I'm sure they're following this.
On second thought, Nobody should use a caddy motor, send them to me and for a small fee i'll get rid of them.
smalltruckbigcid
1/2 ton status
No I need more.I only have 5
