"Enhanced Duramax"

[89GMCSuburban]

Wait a second, wait a second....do you know about business? At all? Just asking because when you are out to make money...history can mean a whole lot of jack sheeyat. People are out to make a buck..one way or the other, and arguing that they won't ditch them just because they saved them in the late 80's is the dumbest thing I've heard.

You obviously do not work on trucks for a living... or if you do, you don't touch these hunks of crap...or you'd have a different outlook on Intertrashionals. The DT466 is an over-rated hunk of crap. You know why Internationals sell? They're cheap...very very cheap compared to an actual quality truck/motor. You know, everybody would rather have a DT466 over a Cummins ISC, or say, a C7 Cat. FL60 and FL70's are outselling the hell out of the new IH trucks. Why? Oh yeah, cause you can get a Cummins, CAT or MBE in them. Hell you probably think Volvo makes the best semi...why? Well, cause you're buddy's dad has one and he loves it...especially them Detroit 60's with EGR...thems guys are just da bomb! None of those EVER come in with less than 10,000 miles on them and already have an EGR leak or an EGR cooler failure.... Please tell me you aren't a driver.....

Yeah, you know, because the programming of an ECM has a lot to do with leaking injectors... I have NEVER seen a leaky injector go bad from ECM programming...usually...it's cause the injector crapped out.

And this just shows the thinking...IFS is strong enough for pretty much anything you will do with a heavy-duty truck. Brilliant...just brilliant, cause you know, if I'm towing 15,000 lbs. of skid steer on a 5th wheel on a logging trail...I want the fingers of metal keeping my front wheels turning through the mud and rocks.... Yeah, that's why people buy Dodges and Fords. GM is losing market share from that...straight up.

 

[sled_dog]

eh screw it...

 

[joez]

Wait a second, wait a second....do you know about business? At all? Just asking because when you are out to make money...history can mean a whole lot of jack sheeyat. People are out to make a buck..one way or the other, and arguing that they won't ditch them just because they saved them in the late 80's is the dumbest thing I've heard.

Yes i do, and getting rid of the Cummins right now wouldn't be the best buisness move. Im not just talking about the W-series trucks, until 2002 the cummins was pretty much the selling point on these trucks in the 3/4 and 1 ton market Their gas motors got horrible fuel economy empty or loaded, their slushboxes definately left something to be desired, especially in 1/2 ton trucks, and fit and finish until ~2000 was inconsistant at best. These impressions are still burned into peoples minds and it will take a while for dodge to recover that mental image, much like GM with thier diesels. They make a nice truck now that does hold together better than the last generation, and quality is up. But, it has only been a few years, and alot of people still buy the Cummins and get a dodge with it. I could definately see them going with a MBE down the road, but not now.

You obviously do not work on trucks for a living... or if you do, you don't touch these hunks of crap...or you'd have a different outlook on Intertrashionals. The DT466 is an over-rated hunk of crap. You know why Internationals sell? They're cheap...very very cheap compared to an actual quality truck/motor. You know, everybody would rather have a DT466 over a Cummins ISC, or say, a C7 Cat. FL60 and FL70's are outselling the hell out of the new IH trucks. Why? Oh yeah, cause you can get a Cummins, CAT or MBE in them. Hell you probably think Volvo makes the best semi...why? Well, cause you're buddy's dad has one and he loves it...especially them Detroit 60's with EGR...thems guys are just da bomb! None of those EVER come in with less than 10,000 miles on them and already have an EGR leak or an EGR cooler failure.... Please tell me you aren't a driver.....

Your right, i dont work on trucks for a job and im not a driver. I have several friends and a neighbor that do work on them for a living, and they all sure love the DT466. In fact your one of the first people i have heard who seems to hate that motor.

Yeah, you know, because the programming of an ECM has a lot to do with leaking injectors... I have NEVER seen a leaky injector go bad from ECM programming...usually...it's cause the injector crapped out.

International programming on the VT365 is much different than fords. International doesnt use pilot injection on the motor, and programming of the injection duration, pressure, needle stroke and timing is differerent to achieve different power levels. the VT365 in an international can be programmed for a maximum of 230hp and 620 torque, its 325hp and 560-570 ft/lbs of torque for the super dutys. Horsepower sells trucks, and ford wanting more, programmed the ECM differently and made other small changes for their trucks. Fords programing pushes the the injectors past what they were orriginally meant to handle, and as a result the needle seats blow out causing a leaky injector.

And this just shows the thinking...IFS is strong enough for pretty much anything you will do with a heavy-duty truck. Brilliant...just brilliant, cause you know, if I'm towing 15,000 lbs. of skid steer on a 5th wheel on a logging trail...I want the fingers of metal keeping my front wheels turning through the mud and rocks.... Yeah, that's why people buy Dodges and Fords. GM is losing market share from that...straight up.

Huh? If your trying to drag a 15K pound goose down a trail thats bad enough for you to be worrying about tie rods breaking, you have MUCH bigger problems at hand, problems that wont magically cure themselves with a SFA.

 

[DavidB]

Huh? If your trying to drag a 15K pound goose down a trail thats bad enough for you to be worrying about tie rods breaking, you have MUCH bigger problems at hand, problems that wont magically cure themselves with a SFA.

IFS sucks. CADs suck. Too many fragile wear parts. I wouldn't mind doing what he's doing with a well built SAS, long as yer not dumb. I have a 3/4 Dodge CTD 4x4. It's solid axle, I've had the truck in the air, etc, and the axle housing, etc never have broken. The CAD, steering and suspension do wear/break though, and wear my wallet and my patience. I hate everything from the frame down in the front of my truck.

And just for the record, I hate my Cummins too. It's a gutless wonder. Hardly pull the truck up a hill, much less a trailer. This is due to Cal emissions crap and something not working right that I haven't been able to figger out, and no one seems to have any good ideas on. Any CTD experts?

 

[K5MONSTERCHEV]

As for GM going to a SFA in their light duty trucks, i highly doubt it as they dont need it. The IFS is strong enough for pretty much anything that you would need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck for. If you need a SFA, the K4500 and K5500 have a solid axle from the factory, a beef Dana 70.

I agree.

I also agree with you Alan!

 

[DavidB]

QUOTE:The IFS is strong enough for pretty much anything that you would need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck for.

UNQUOTE: I need a 3/4 or 1 ton 4x4 truck to work hard, on or off road. They show 'em pounding thru mudholes and crap in the commercials, but the truck doesn't nearly live up to it. IFS doesn't work, much less work hard. Ford has chevy and Dodge spanked all over the place from the frame down. Some guys say not to get them started on the Ford 6.0. Don't get me started on the crap some manufacturers are calling drivetrains. Engines are getting more and more powerful and weight ratings are going up, and everything else is getting lighter and weaker.

 

[originalspanksta]

daimler chrysler also owns detroit deisel now, so when the dodge/cummins contract is up you may see detroits in dodges....

everyone talks about duramax being isuzu designed like its a bad thing....im not so sure of that, iirc isuzu = worlds largest diesel manufacturer, commmercial & otherwise...

 

[sled_dog]

Eh, factory SFAs are NOT designed well. Even on our rigs. Look at the steering vs. wheelbase. THe Ackerman angle on a K5 blazer is the SAME as the angle on a Suburban. Are you telling me the 12" wheelbase difference doesn't effect that? HA. The springs on the front of a Burb vs a K5 are the same too. Different spring loads there. Same for the rear springs. OEMs manufacturer, "universally close". They build to suit everything, a little bit. Where as a company like ORU(who has no where near the money or time in it GM does yet does it better) can specific build you a spring setup, shock valving(GM has a one size fits all here too, when they felt it needed they just added a second one ) and help you setup everything how it needs to be for what you are doing.

 

[89GMCSuburban]

Ackerman angle? Toe-out on turns??? Come on, my Burb turns friggin well, and all that really matters at is at low speeds. You don't spend enough time at full lock turning to really validate creating tooling and machines to make an Ackerman angle to put it exactly in spec...and if you want your ackerman angle to be exact to your specific application, you are doing some serious offroading. Other than that, I never hear anybody going to a shop asking for their ackerman angle to be set precisely to their vehicle.

Yeah, you can specifically tune...blah blah blah...but I would rather buy a new truck with a warranty from the factory ready for the heavy towing I'd use it for.

The shock valving thing is funny. They actually added a second one to reduce fade, and if you look at actual part numbers, there are seperate shocks for dual and quad front ends.

They may not have changed the front springs, but Burbs do have 56" springs in the back instead of 52's.

In the end, guy, you do what you want, but if they want me, personally, to buy a heavy duty truck...anybody that tells me "buy a medium duty if you want an SFA" doesn't get my buy. Why pay that much for a truck that's slow, eats fuel and is WAYYY larger than I need it to be?

 

[Grieby54]

I test drove one about 2 weeks ago... It's a niiiiiiiice truck. Smooth ride too. Anyone care to buy me one? I asked the saleman if the rumors of the SFA were true and he just said "I think it's gonna be hollow because I haven't heard anything about it being solid..."

 

[89GMCSuburban]

They love the DT466 because it's keeps them fed. Just like I love EGR Detroits, Sterlings, and Daimler Chrysler rear-ends. And...they are easy to work on....a BIG factor in whether or not a mechanic loves them.

Flat out, you are comparing a motor meant for different uses. A 5.9 cummins in a Dodge is NOT the same thing as an ISB in a medium duty truck. They are programmed different, some have different injectors and fuel pumps. It all depends. When you buy a light truck with a Powersmoke, you want it to get you moving quickly and get some good mileage. Why? It's your DD. You need that with it being a DD. Now take a medium duty...what is it's purpose? Work truck and towing....not a DD. Demands are different, so they set them up for the different purposes.

BTW, the fingers I'm talking about...are the CV shafts.

 

[sandracer799]

"I think it's gonna be hollow because I haven't heard anything about it being solid..."

I am truly laughing out loud!!!

 

[DavidB]

I am truly laughing out loud!!!

ME TOO!

 

[mikey_d05]

As previously mentioned, the shock rates for the duals are different. Speaking of ackerman...do any manufacturers switch up the ackerman on vehicles they offer different wheelbases in be it SFA or IFS? I don't believe this is an IFS vs. SFA issue, just sloppy engineering all around. Also, OEM's do what makes the most sense mechanically AND economically. Production runs of different axles for every wheelbase vehicle you produce would be a lot harder to manage than one giant order. How many people really notice that their ackerman is a tenth of a degree off? How many people actually know what ackerman is? People shrink and stretch wheelbases all the time in the wheeling world without even mentioning it. Four wheeling is so imprecise when it comes to terrain and tire spin that it's just not a critical measurement. The guys on Pirate beat it death but what terrain is actually sticky enough that you're gonna notice. Slickrock is the only thing coming to mind and even then when you throw 4wd and lockers into the mix ackerman is the least of your steering woes.

Also, the last time I looked ORU only offers one size fits all springs. The only variables in their setup are the kits that attach them to different frames and allow for different spring pad spacings. They'll probably build custom packs, but so will any custom spring manufacturer if you come to them with a set of parameters. You mention that they'll help you set up shock valving for your application. This isn't a direct argument but OE's set up shock valving that is best all around for the vehicle in it's current state. They cannot predict your driving conditions, payloads, and suspension modifications. Admittedly, custom setups are better in that area but you have to realize the limitations put on manufacturers by producing a versatile vehicle.

A manufacturers job is to try and make a vehicle into the one that is best and most well rounded in its field. I will concede as far as OEM's don't set up a system that is typically great for off road. But, we push vehicles to and beyond their limits in terrains that they were never intended to go into. On a certain level, comparing an ORU setup to an OEM suspension is like saying highway tires don't clean well in the mud. OE components are well engineered for the most part. Yeah, there are oversights and screw ups that lead to malfunctions, but all things have bugs. IMHO, Chevy is sacrificing a superior design for a heavy duty truck in order to improve the ride quality only a minute amount.

 

[sled_dog]

I don't think the ride improvement is a "minute amount". My dad LOVES the ride of his 2500HD compared to his F250. I can feel the difference for sure, but it still feels like a truck.

I realize OEMs are building for a generalization, thus why I used the phrase "Universally Close". Thats how they build.

If you call up ORU they would hook you up with custom springs and whatever you want/need.

89GMCSuburban, have you ever seen a broken CV Shaft? I've seen worn out ones but never broken. Do you really think the CVs are THAT much smaller then the shafts of a Dana 50?

CAD? Dodge used it through the 90s.

Unit Bearings? Ford and Dodge....

I hear my buddies with their Dodge and Ford SFA rigs complaining about how many wheel bearings, trac bars, and misc other stuff they've had to install compared to the guys I know with 4wd Chevys. Sure they go bad too, everything wears out, none of the manufacturers build things as tough as they used to.

Eh this is turning into an IFS vs SFA pissing match. Look ma, I hit 9'... So I'm gonna say its dropped... love how everything on this forum turns to a fight about something completely different anymore (not leaving pissed off so don't think I am).

 

[DavidB]

terrains that they were never intended to go into..

THEN WHY DO THEY MAKE "OFFROAD" PACKAGES AND SHOW THEM POUNDING THRU MUD N STUFF IN THE COMMERCIALS?! False advertising. I hope someone from Chevy is reading this, but they don't care, so why whould they? Using your truck like they do in the commercials would void the warranty. Manufacturers are looking to make a buck, just like everyone else. Trucks sell on nice ride, easy to shift button Xfer cases, nifty CD players, convertible beds, all that crap. That's why truck are changing from truck to El Caminos. Most people don't know or care what's under their truck until it breaks and they have to pay out the wazoo for it. The unit bearings on my Dodge cost $500 each. You can prolly put new bearings in the old standard setup for less than $100. probably last longer too because the bearings in a unit bearing are closer together. But they build them that way so they can assemble them faster at the factory and make more money. Bunch of crap.

 

[89GMCSuburban]

Agreed, more than ready for the thread to die

 

[DavidB]

Agreed, more than ready for the thread to die

Yah I think pretty much everyone agrees that they're not happy with the way things are done in the automotive world. I'm done venting, let's quit harping on it, it depresses me.

 

[mikey_d05]

THEN WHY DO THEY MAKE "OFFROAD" PACKAGES AND SHOW THEM POUNDING THRU MUD N STUFF IN THE COMMERCIALS?! False advertising. I hope someone from Chevy is reading this, but they don't care, so why whould they? Using your truck like they do in the commercials would void the warranty. Manufacturers are looking to make a buck, just like everyone else. Trucks sell on nice ride, easy to shift button Xfer cases, nifty CD players, convertible beds, all that crap. That's why truck are changing from truck to El Caminos. Most people don't know or care what's under their truck until it breaks and they have to pay out the wazoo for it. The unit bearings on my Dodge cost $500 each. You can prolly put new bearings in the old standard setup for less than $100. probably last longer too because the bearings in a unit bearing are closer together. But they build them that way so they can assemble them faster at the factory and make more money. Bunch of crap.

Ok, let me make one last comment before I stop posting. Offroad packages are 99% b.s. and hype. They're pounding through mud puddles three inches deep. I've also seen the commercials pawning the Cobalt as a high performance car. If you're dumb enough to believe everything you see on TV, you deserve whatever you get.

 

[sled_dog]

god dangit, alright, LAST COMMENT I swear.

Most people that buy a Z71 or FX4, are happy with what they get. They feel special and will never leave the pavement, that is that. Anyone in the know knows its bull and doesn't buy it thinking it is an offroad vehicle. Those who don't know, well they buy it and feel special and justified in their extra $$$ down. yeah they are dumb, but hey, ignorance is bliss, no?