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Expedition CC 6bt musings....

AussieK5

AussieK5

1/2 ton status
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G'day fellas,

I 'kinda' started this project along a while back, but it stalled completely and I need to put some more brain power into it before the year is out.

The old man knew I was planning to 'eventually' build up a Chevy CC as an expedition rig and wants me to do a pair of them so he can journey this great land in style as well :D I need to give him a final spec sheet so he can start sourcing the trucks/gear before he retires in July.

Both trucks would be expected to haul at most, a Blazer flat tow and for my father's rig, a 5th wheel camper (maybe flat tow off-road camper ie http://www.trakmaster.com.au/cms/details.asp?NewsID=66) for a total of 30k miles.

I wouldn't mind if you guys could chuck in your 2 cents concerning the viability/usability of this spec sheet, especially concerning the choice of main hardware, the bolt-on/accessory list is provided for entertainment purposes :wink1::

Base vehicle
- 1 ton K series (77-87) Crew Cab shortened to standard P/U length (130inch 'ish) with flatbed. This model has been chosen for the D60 and thicker frame, I don't know if its overkill, but I'd like these rigs to be stout.
I have seen metal fatigue in 3/4 ton chassis and the added weight of the Cummins may accelerate wear past what would be considered acceptable.
I do have a K20 in the inventory at the moment and it may be a contender for my rig with some strengthening...dependent on advice received.

-6bt 12V (possibly 24V) very mild build, geared for between 1800-1950 at cruise speed depending on 6bt type. Possibly with propane injection.

-NV4500 + suitable transfer case, we could go to 5600's or ZF6's here however I'm concerned about losing driveability due to the heavier shifting required...... I'm not 100% on this as I have never seen a 4500, 5600 or ZF6 let alone driven with one.:blush:

-maximum 35" rubber on steel rims (splits), true rolling diameter will of course be 1"-1.5" smaller than this.

- everything brand new or reco'd


Plus all the usual fruit...
- steel bullbars
- 12k winches
- ARB drivers seats
- Engel electric
- ARB rear lockers
- disk rear
- snorkels
- Lightforce spotties
- roof racks
- centre cooler + tuffy (or equivalent console)
- UHF/VHF comms suite
- 240w inverters
- custom camper unit on tray
- side canopy
- multiple battery set-up augmented with solar wizardry
- 100% brand new wiring harness
- 100% aftermarket gauges
- pwr steer
- aircon with filtered intakes for positive pressure when required
- 250-300 usable litres (65-80 gallons) of fuel on board split between two tanks
- airbag helper on rear with remote fill and switching (in cab)
- ARB air compressor
- 2" lift + adjustable shocks on all corners (in cab switching)
- dark tint
- 2 spares
- spliced internal cage & external barwork
etc etc

I can't start the hands on component of this project until Dec 10, but I promise to start a build thread with a trillion pics when I do. I may even get to work on the Blazer again!

Thanks for reading this far, any and all input is welcome.

Jas
 
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sixb, is a member here, he has done the CC/6bt frame shortening thing allready he'd be the guy to discuss some of this with.


Link

Sorry Sixb's is a Blazer, chaotick5 is the CC/6bt, I've seen the CC in person, the thing is awesome! Sixb's looks too cool, I wish I had the resources to do what either of these guys have done.
 
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For lots of good Cummins swap info check out http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?14-Cummins-6BT-5.9-Conversions alot of good info there.

As far as which Cummins, I would say 12 valve, simple, realiable and minimal electronics. Easy to make good power and parts are actually quite reasonable as far as price goes, a 94-98 p-pump would be ideal (96-98's originally stick shifts are the highest powered of the 12 valvers) . Mounting them into a k truck is pretty easy , http://www.tndiesel.com/ makes a nice mount and crossmember kit as does http://www.avalancheengineering.com/cummins_engine_conversions.html .

Transmission wise, the 4500 would be the easiest to do and can be mated to a GM round pattern 32 spline 205 quite easily. The majority of people will use a 96 and up GM 4500 with a Dodge input shaft as opposed to a Dodge trans. This is due to the availability of a Dodge 205 (29spline which was only available behind Cummins trucks from 89-93) with the correct side drop and the Dodge 5th gear nut problem.

Do some reading on 4btswaps and talk to Scott, Crewcab59 (I think), he is a vendor here and owner of Tennesse Diesel Conversions.

:D
 
Sounds cool, I demand pics, and uhm, how common are the crewcabs over there or are you planning on importing them?
 
I would say 12 valve, simple, realiable and minimal electronics........4500 would be the easiest to do and can be mated to a GM round pattern 32 spline 205 quite easily..............talk to Scott, Crewcab59 (I think), he is a vendor here and owner of Tennesse Diesel Conversions
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Josh

Thanks for the specific info concerning the engine and trans. The 4500 and 205 sounds like a pretty good combo for what these rigs need to do. It wasn't a combo I would immediately thought of. I know from experience the 205 is stupidly easy to work on. And from what I've been able to glean from this site and others, the 4500 is very similar requiring only a minimum of specialized tools.

I put up a similar post to my original on 4bt.com when I started this thread, traffic seems a bit slow.

Thanks for the tip on Scott's status as a vendor, I'll be in contact with him.

I really like the work your doing on your K5, doing it once and doing it right is a great thing.

Sorry Sixb's is a Blazer, chaotick5 is the CC/6bt, I've seen the CC in person, the thing is awesome!
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Matt,

Sixb's build thread is a great read, I've subscribed to it.

I found some pics of the 6bt/cc (chaotick5) and a few references to it but, no build thread. I'll shoot the guy a pm and see if he'd mind dumping some pics/info my way.

how common are the crewcabs over there or are you planning on importing them?
Click to expand...
Not very common, and 1 ton K CC's are as rare as rocking horse sh$t. Some cheap'ish CC's turn up now and then (approx $7k AUD) but, they are invariably 3/4 ton and two wheel drive. I have a few contacts and there is a guy who recently started RO/RO imports, which generally means cheaper freight costs for these big trucks. One 40ft shipping container costs about $10k AUD landed and only one CC can fit in it!

I suppose from here I'll be sourcing
- two 1 ton 77-87 CC, preferably with 3.73 diff's as they give an rpm range of 1700-2000 between 60-70mph
- a pair of 96-98 12V's
- likewise with the 96+ GM 4500's and 32 spline 205's

I'm leaving the K20 as is, far more cost effective that way and I get to keep another truck intact :D

Thanks for the replies guys.

Jas
 
I forgot to mention one other thing, another member here (who has been a wealth of cummins info for me) pseudomike also has a CC with a 12v and I believe a 4500 205 combo. He has given me alot of great info and suggestions about the swap and general 12v info. I'm not sure if he has a thread on the truck but shoot him a PM, really good guy :bow:.

Also as far as the 12 valvers, any of them (year wise) are stone realiable and can make great power and great economy as well. The 96-98.5's that were in front of manual trans had the 215 hp injection pump, but any of the p-pump trucks can be tweaked to make big power. If you aren't looking for big power (350hp and up) a first gen 12 valve with the VE pump would work great as well, these tend to be a little cheaper because everyone wants the p7100 pumped engines.

For some more 12 valve build info check out http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/1002dp_1994_to_1998_dodge_ram_power_recipes/index.html they also have build up info on the first gens in another article. :D
 
I know a guy who put a first gen 12v, NV4500, and NP205 in his CUCV last year. If you want I can try and find the links to his write ups. He's not a member here.
 
don't don't don't inject propane into your diesel. don't inject anything at all, especially LPG, if you want reliability. P pump 6BTs make PLENTY of horsepower with very simple pump modifications. any injectable spikes your cylinder pressures. you don't want to lunch a headgasket on some trail in the middle of nowhere.
 
I must admit I have done very little investigation into diesel LPG injection other than magazine articles, what I had read cited, amongst other things, mpg increases due to the homogeneous nature of propane allowing all the diesel to burn uniformly.

I've run propane on my SBC's for nearly 20 years so I have a fair amount of spare gear around to cut down on installation costs....seemed like a good idea at the time.

I didn't plan to add it for the power gains, as you say the 6bt will have ample for my purposes.

I will be looking into what you have said as I will be building for reliability primarily and don't want any nasty surprises. BTW I didn't plan to cobble up some hillbilly set up for it, we have pretty strict laws in Aus that prohibit rego approval unless an authorised shop installs the system.

http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au/
http://www.dieselgas.com.au/

Thanks for the heads up,

Jas
 
ok theres a major difference from Aus to my place in canada. propane is more expensive than both diesel and gasoline.

so it doesn't make any sense to replace a fuel, with a more expensive fuel that has a BTU content nearly 75% less than the fuel its replacing.


but on the upside. if really depends on when that LPG charge is injected into the cylinder to pertain to cylinder pressures. nitrous and water/methanol stack are injected into the intake and drawn in to the plenum with the charge air. depending on the volume injected depends on how high the cylinder pressure will go. there is no measureing device commercially availiable to measure Cyl press. but the number of headgsket failures goes up exponentially with higher injection rates. generally.


but if this outfit has devised a way to inject into the cylinder after the initial diesel injection, cylinder pressure can be controlled at a much lower level. but i don't know anything about their system, and its probably patented.
 
We get LPG at roughly 45% the cost of diesel or gas (using the US spelling there for petrol ;)) so it pretty attractive as a fuel for anyone who's vehicle can handle an extra fuel tank.

One companies blurb states 'pulse-modulated needle injection process to perfect the diesel-gas fuel mix'....'In a diesel engine, up to 35% of diesel fuel is substituted with LPG, resulting in less overall fuel consumption and up to 20% more torque'.

The whole system needs an ECU so it will be pricey no doubt and its injected in the intake close to the upstream side of the valve.

I crunched some numbers and say I adjusted my fuel costs from $1.20lt ($4.54AUD/Gallon) for diesel to what a 65% diesel/35% LPG mix would cost, $0.99, running an LPG injection system.....and made an assumption for mileage at 12 lt/100km (approx 20mpg) and 30,000km/year. Then the annual savings would be at the upper end, 750 beer tickets ($4320 vs $3564).

I'm going to do some digging and see if they live up to their claims.

On a side note I know for a fact a company around here can replace injectors in gasser engines with ones designed to flow liquid lpg, hello to lower intake charge temps and truly efficient dual fuel set-ups....I cant bloody wait!!:D
 
if you're considering alternative fuels i believe waste veggie oil has a btu rating similar to diesel.

i have the nv5600 in my dodge, good tranny expensive parts compared to the nv4500.

if you go with the dodge nv4500 the first gear is 5.?:1 with a beefier input shaft. the late model chevy's have the same gear with weaker input shaft. the earlier shevy nv4500 had 6.3:1 1st more of a crawler gear.

metcalf on expedition portal built a '93 dodge w250 cummins getrag tranny 205, 3.55 gears and 39" michelin xzl. says he likes the combo because it makes the first gear actually useable. consistent 18-20 mpg. getrag 5speed has similar gearing to the nv 4500.

for expo i would lean towards the reliability of the mechanical motors as well.
 
Your choice of 12 valves.

The dodge truck or med duty . The med duty has the mid mount A/C brackets and use the 21-24 si alt which range from 140- 250amp.

Gm nv4500 96 and newer ,swap the input shaft and use a round 205.

Scott
 
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