Yeah, I've really tried to avoid (and have) cutting. One thing I'm not going to do is risk a fire. I'm confident in my abilities, but since GM figured the Saginaw was necessary even at 13PSI, and I can't make Saginaw, I don't intend to cut anything.
CK5
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F-body or Vette ecm
- Thread starter 77crewcab
- Start date
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
I have a local shop that makes hoses, fuel, brake lines. They told me they have a way of doing braided hose, crimped onto hardline like brake lines. I took them some of the extension hardlines today to see what they can do. Also messed around with bending the lines on a junked fuel rail. It isn't too hard with just bare hands, using a bender shouldn't be a problem. I am thinking of using a Vette rail and bending the lines back to face the rear kinda under the crossbar on the rails. Then using the hardline/braided line combo made by the hose shop to go back to the TBI lines.
Only problem I had with re-bending the steel lines was when there were already multiple bends, and I needed to change the direction of a bend. In my case, to run them down the front of the motor, behind the PS pump, I had to straighten out the factory f-body "extensions", which was where I couldn't bend it good enough to appear clean, or straight.
I've never closely looked at the TBI fuel lines from the frame rail to the TBI. I assume they went combination metal/flexible right where the lines come off the rail up the back of the motor? It might be just as easy if you can bend the lines yourself pretty easily, and/or the place you mentioned can make the lines pretty cost effectively, to simply extend the lines forward, then come off the frame like they did on the carbed trucks. Perhaps have them make the steel lines with the correct fittings on the TPI end, (when you get to that point) but with plenty of new bendable steel tubing on the end with no fittings. Bend them up, cut a few inches from where they need to mate to the frame, and have them add the fittings/flexible hose there.
If you run EGR, it MIGHT get hot enough to cause problems for flex line. As I recall, it's pretty tight around the EGR.
I've never closely looked at the TBI fuel lines from the frame rail to the TBI. I assume they went combination metal/flexible right where the lines come off the rail up the back of the motor? It might be just as easy if you can bend the lines yourself pretty easily, and/or the place you mentioned can make the lines pretty cost effectively, to simply extend the lines forward, then come off the frame like they did on the carbed trucks. Perhaps have them make the steel lines with the correct fittings on the TPI end, (when you get to that point) but with plenty of new bendable steel tubing on the end with no fittings. Bend them up, cut a few inches from where they need to mate to the frame, and have them add the fittings/flexible hose there.
If you run EGR, it MIGHT get hot enough to cause problems for flex line. As I recall, it's pretty tight around the EGR.
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
Right now I am just going to wait to see how the custom lines come out and go from there to decide on routing.
Yeah, good idea. Buy stuff now, you'll end up coming up with a better way to do it. As I did with Vortec heads and TPI. 
Factory is a steel/braided line to the TBI from the frame rail, correct?
Factory is a steel/braided line to the TBI from the frame rail, correct?
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
TBI has braided lines from frame that connect to hardlines at back of block, the hardlines go to TBI unit. If these guys can do a good job on the fuel line it may just solve my problems completely.
How do you like the TPI with vortec heads? Especially combined with the 33s and 3.42s? I plan to use the vortec heads, sdpc vortec intake, with a 700 and the option of 31/33 tires and 3.42/3.73 gears. Not decided 100% which way to go on the tires/gears
How do you like the TPI with vortec heads? Especially combined with the 33s and 3.42s? I plan to use the vortec heads, sdpc vortec intake, with a 700 and the option of 31/33 tires and 3.42/3.73 gears. Not decided 100% which way to go on the tires/gears
I think I'd be a bit happier with the 700R4's gears, but not the trans itself lol. 
Personally I think it runs out of steam too quick. I spent way too much money on an aftermarket roller cam (should have started with a stock roller block, preferably Vortec too) and although I got a "good" deal on the Vortec heads and SDPC intake, I would have been better served with either some aftermarket Vortec replacements like EQ, or some AFR's. Broken studs, leaking oil, thin castings, $400 base, you name it.
But aside from those, it makes a lot of low end power. Grenaded my 10 bolt gov-lock that had lived in the truck for years within months of installing TPI, and will noticeably raise the front end when I get on it.
I'm woefully behind in tuning it, although I've got all the equipment, just being lazy I guess. I know there is more performance in it, and economy as well. I need to go fill it up in the next few days, I was pretty easy on the freeway, with a slight bit of off-road on this tank, so I'm guessing its going to be in the 15MPG range. Best I saw was all freeway, almost all downhill, 18MPG, which bested my carbed setups high by 1MPG. Hell of a lot of money and work for a less than a 10% gain in economy. But I'm happy with it. Turn they key, let the pump prime, start cranking, and it starts, every time, rain or shine, day or night. Never dies when its 19* and I let it idle to warm up. If I had a better crawl ratio, it would probably go anywhere in 4lo without me ever touching the gas, but when it gets steep enough, it starts to stall, but that's because it just can't compensate enough at idle to keep the thing moving. Through fairly moderate climbing and wheeling though, I don't need to touch the pedal, and it never bucks like the carb did with little to no throttle input.
I think with overdrive and 33's, it would pull fine on the freeway. Climbing the passes around here I don't even think of dropping it out of 3rd (1:1 anyways) and I'm sure I could cruise around the same places in OD no problem. I also think I'd blow apart a 700 not built for this kind of power in this heavy of a truck.
Personally I think it runs out of steam too quick. I spent way too much money on an aftermarket roller cam (should have started with a stock roller block, preferably Vortec too) and although I got a "good" deal on the Vortec heads and SDPC intake, I would have been better served with either some aftermarket Vortec replacements like EQ, or some AFR's. Broken studs, leaking oil, thin castings, $400 base, you name it.
But aside from those, it makes a lot of low end power. Grenaded my 10 bolt gov-lock that had lived in the truck for years within months of installing TPI, and will noticeably raise the front end when I get on it.
I'm woefully behind in tuning it, although I've got all the equipment, just being lazy I guess. I know there is more performance in it, and economy as well. I need to go fill it up in the next few days, I was pretty easy on the freeway, with a slight bit of off-road on this tank, so I'm guessing its going to be in the 15MPG range. Best I saw was all freeway, almost all downhill, 18MPG, which bested my carbed setups high by 1MPG. Hell of a lot of money and work for a less than a 10% gain in economy.
But I'm happy with it. Turn they key, let the pump prime, start cranking, and it starts, every time, rain or shine, day or night. Never dies when its 19* and I let it idle to warm up. If I had a better crawl ratio, it would probably go anywhere in 4lo without me ever touching the gas, but when it gets steep enough, it starts to stall, but that's because it just can't compensate enough at idle to keep the thing moving. Through fairly moderate climbing and wheeling though, I don't need to touch the pedal, and it never bucks like the carb did with little to no throttle input.I think with overdrive and 33's, it would pull fine on the freeway. Climbing the passes around here I don't even think of dropping it out of 3rd (1:1 anyways) and I'm sure I could cruise around the same places in OD no problem. I also think I'd blow apart a 700 not built for this kind of power in this heavy of a truck.
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
So if you had the option would you go with 3.73 or leave the 3.42 with a 33" tire?
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
How much power are you getting anyway?
Between 3.42's and 3.73's...hmm. IIRC, the 700 and 465 1st gears (not low in the 465) are about equal, but you've got a converter. So on the street, I'd say no difference. Perhaps a bit better in your case. Off road, the 3.73's can help with crawling up, or compression braking downhill. Depends how much you need it. Judging by your tire and gear options given, doesn't sound like you are planning on hardcore wheeling. The numerically lower gears though, WILL strain the 700R4 more. Do you have one set of gears already? I'd not worry about it until after the motor is built if so, test out what you have, see if you are happy. As to power. This is as close as I can come to numbers (obviously the 350 chart) http://dyeager535.topcities.com/miscpics.html Thats without headers, not sure if the 40 or so HP that is typically seen with headers shows up the same in DD2K. Sorry about the formatting, either the forum is funky, or Firefox is right now.
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
I actually have a complete set of both 3.42 and 3.73 10 bolts. Right now I only have 31" tires but planned to go to 33s when they wear out. Most of my driving will be just street/hwy and then the occaisional hunting/camping trip. The numbers you show would be fine. I think I might look at some other heads though to save on the vortec base. Maybe something from World or RHS. Right now I have the option of either TBI heads or TPI heads. Just trying to decide which to run.
You can buy vortec heads with the conventional intake pattern on them. Look at Summit Racing, i know they sell them there.
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
Do you happen to know who makes them?
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Information/Technical/Heads/ChevyVortec-Heads.asp
Is this what you are talking about?
Is this what you are talking about?
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
Hey Scott what about sticking with just 193 TBI heads? Won't that be a torqier setup? I have some 193s on the TBI engine and a set of 083s cast L98s. Of the two wouldn't the 193s be better for a truck, without having the expense of aftermarket heads. I am not after monster power just a healthy driver.
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Vortecs can't be had with the stock bolt pattern. Well, they can, but those setups have always confused me...you can't use a standard intake on Vortec heads, since the intake ports are nowhere near the same shape, and modding a "normal" intake to mate up usually results in running out of metal before matching them up.
Vortec heads tolerate higher compression with the same grade of gas. So while TBI heads CAN be made to perform, the chamber design difference is impossible to work around. Essentially GM did the same thing in both heads, just a different way, but the TBI heads restrict flow more as you get away from low RPM's. For a street vehicle that isn't towing all the time, that would be a hindrance. Any head with the "fast burn" chamber, that keeps you out of expensive intakes, would be my choice to be honest. That of course includes RHS/EQ or whoever, since you don't really need AFR priced heads.
I'd throw the 3.42's in it, then when you go 33's see how you like it. If you think 3.73's might be better, you only need to swap the rear to test, and that's a cinch compared to an injection installation or engine build. If you make enough torque down low, the engine will pull 33's from a stop no problem, and will happily cruise on the freeway in OD at a lower RPM.
Is this going in the '77? (Sorry if I missed it) Probably not much of an option if so, but thinking of the gear ratio change possibility, the electronic speedometer/DRAC setup is handy for correcting for that stuff. But without an NP241 already setup for it, or a 2WD trans already setup for it, that isn't a cheap or easy proposition.
Vortec heads tolerate higher compression with the same grade of gas. So while TBI heads CAN be made to perform, the chamber design difference is impossible to work around. Essentially GM did the same thing in both heads, just a different way, but the TBI heads restrict flow more as you get away from low RPM's. For a street vehicle that isn't towing all the time, that would be a hindrance. Any head with the "fast burn" chamber, that keeps you out of expensive intakes, would be my choice to be honest. That of course includes RHS/EQ or whoever, since you don't really need AFR priced heads.
I'd throw the 3.42's in it, then when you go 33's see how you like it. If you think 3.73's might be better, you only need to swap the rear to test, and that's a cinch compared to an injection installation or engine build.
If you make enough torque down low, the engine will pull 33's from a stop no problem, and will happily cruise on the freeway in OD at a lower RPM.Is this going in the '77? (Sorry if I missed it) Probably not much of an option if so, but thinking of the gear ratio change possibility, the electronic speedometer/DRAC setup is handy for correcting for that stuff. But without an NP241 already setup for it, or a 2WD trans already setup for it, that isn't a cheap or easy proposition.
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
Actually going in a 79 K5 with 350 TBI/700/208, using 89 wiring harnes for the TBI speed sensor in the guages. Then when swapped to TPI will use one of the speedo adapters between the speedo cable and t-case for the speed sensor. I think just for budget concerns I will keep the TBI heads for a while after the TPI swap. See how they do and maybe shop for some fastburn style heads. What are the EQ heads you mentioned? Will probably do as you suggested and try the 3.42 and swap to 3.73 if needed. The 3.42 did okay on my burb, so might be fine in a lighter vehicle with more power.
Thunder
3/4 ton status
Personally I really like 193 heads. Some think they are a crap head because they dont flow well at higher rpms. But honestly. How much time time do you spend driving at 4500 RPM?
IMO they are a great head for a truck. There is no stock head, including Vortecs. That builds torque and HP under 3300 rpm better than 193s. at the higher RPMs for sure. The vortecs blow 193 away.
193s would be a far better choice than the L98 heads for a truck.
For a DD type truck where you want low end power and good fuel MPG I think 193s are your best choice.
193s also respond very well to mild porting. Simply gasket matching, cleaning up the intake, exhaust ports and the swirl ramp will give a nice power boost all across the RPM band.
BTW the TBI 193 heads are "Fast Burn" heads. Altho not as refined as Vortecs and other fast burn heads. 193s were GM earliest attempt at a fast burn chamber.
Also
If you are concidering using a 700R4. By all means go with 3.73 gears. Espically if you plan on 33" tires. You wont be happy with 3.42 and neither will your 700r4.
Not being argumentative, do you have data that supports this? I know 193's work, but I want to see Vortecs against 193's. I searched, I couldn't find them. Not flow numbers, I want dyno numbers. I'll keep my personal opinions on the topic to myself, as that's not what I'm here for, but I want proof one way or the other.
I've seen work done over at thirdgen.org on the 193's, but I don't like taking data from one source and comparing to data from another source, because it seems like there are always different criteria or methods for testing when you don't get the info from the same source. I'd really like to see something like a magazine article where everything but the heads (and tune if required) stayed the same and it was dynoed. You look at GM claims that Vortecs make 40HP more than previous heads, but the 193 is probably not what they tested against. GM literature shows a 55HP/20ft lb Vortec gain over 1995 TBI, but you've got to factor in the difference in induction and roller valvetrain in that.
Absolutely no argument that low end torque is what you need in a truck used as a truck. But the Vortecs were solely designed and used in trucks...so it's not like they weren't designed for low end. Can the same be said of the 193's?
77crewcab
1/2 ton status
Since I have several sets of the 193s I think I may just try the stock version to start with, if I am not happy with it then look at maybe having a set ported slightly. The more I think about it, the less I can justify spending big money on a set of heads for what is essentially a daily driver. Especially when that money could be spent on other areas of the truck.
