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square tube roll bar/cage????

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knottyrich

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crazy thought, i got grinder, sawzall, and welder....so i was kicking around the idea of make a roll bar/cage (six-point, two hoops' ) for the rig with square tube. think it will work? i was gonna flip it so it's like a diamond for maybe a little extra strength? every seen one made? is it gonna work? not a real wild driver/rock crawler. just wanted a little safety 4 me and the kiddos when boucing around.
thnx
 
I dont know for certain, but I have heard from others that square tube does work fine if done right, but that is just what I have heard. They said that the reason that most people use round tube is because it looks better. Remember that is what I've heard never done it.
 
Might be kinda unique. Square tube is better than no tube. What would you use? 1.5" or 2" receiver type tube? Hell, go 1.5" and wrap it in some foam pipe insulation and the wrap that in wide black electrical tape and go old school.
 
I understand completely where your coming from. Plus I think anything is better than nothing.
Your are going to get bombarded with hell no don't even think it.
My cage is made from 2 inch DOM. But, I have thought about using a few pieces of square tube to add reinforcement.
 
Can you get square DOM?

Round is probably much easier to make cages from because you can bend it in any direction. Square will bend, but only in 4 directions(without some oddball dies).
 
I'm probably going to use some square for mine due to the fact that I will occasionally be using the top as a roof rack and place to lay down while I'm calling coyotes (to see over the brush).

It actually has more cross-sectional area than round, and retains it's strength better when dinged than round does. DOM is probably stronger, but the necessity of DOM is somewhat of an open debate. Fact of the matter is, how hard you roll it and how many times it goes over makes more of a difference than anything. Some guys could tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer and need something indestructible. Others probably won't ever roll in the first place, and if they do, the cage will probably do more to protect the windshield and doors than anything else.

Hell, there's a lot of guys back home that have cages made entirely of pipe that have rolled multiple times without damage to their cage at all. It's all in how you drive and the quality of your construction.
 
had this issue come up on another forum .
It's not as strong, plus it's more apt to fold when you bend it, and you can't really keep it "square" and make compound angles, and then when you intersect a piece that has a compound bend with a piece that doesn't the cross sections aren't going to mesh well because the diagonal corner-corner width is greater than the side-side width.

I just think of race cars...
SCCA and other rule books spell out exactly what to build a roll cage out of, and the design of the cage.

a drag racing cage is not the same as a road racing cage, but they are always made of round tube.

round tube is MUCH stronger than square tube,
 
i think i'm gonna try it first , to make my "tube" doors, tailgate/jug&tire carrier, and try a stout bumper. i was thinking anything tied to frame, is gonna do somthing. :confused: my drawing has 1 tube "hoop" behind drvr seat...bolt to floor, 1 hoop behind rear seat..bolt to frame, then 2 kicks inline with frame. bolt to frame there.
the idea was to go all round or all square. the doors and bumpers..etc. a lot quicker/easier with square.
 
So if this is to happen what wall thickness would one use? Don't know all the decimal (sp) stuff but I'd think 1/4" would be overkill and very heavy. 1/8"??? Seems like similar wall thickness of round and square; round would be stronger? Don't know, just thinking out loud.
 
Even using square tube I would not go thicker then 1/8 thick tube. I personally think it will look like crap myself, but I would rather have a square tube cage in a rollover then nothing at all. Brace it well if your gonna do it. You going to have issues with the angles as was said. Round tube is the standard period. There is a reason who square tube is not used in any motorsports period. It's your rig though so if thats what you want then go for it.
 
I think the biggest issue here for the OP is, it sounds like he wont be using a bender... it'd be one thing to do your gentle A & B pillar post bends with a bender, then do some mitre cut thing in other areas... but to mitre cut EVERY bend point adds to it not being a great idea imo...

like said, better than nothing, but not worth the effort imo.... as mentioned, i've seen tons of square cages in heavy equipment, but those use a bender where needed...
 
NorCal_Chris said:
round tube is MUCH stronger than square tube,
Click to expand...

Got any proof?? If it is stronger then let's switch the subject over to links. I have seen guys bend .375 DOM links on fairly light weight rigs and guys running 1/4" wall 2x2 square tube taking the same impact on heavy rigs without bending them.
 
square tube is meant to be loaded from a specific direction. Tubing in a cage is loaded from any number of directions, more importantly from directions you can not predict.

Tubing in a roll cage is going to be twisted at some point. Square is less than ideal for this type of force.

Square tube weld joints will not be as strong as a coped round tube joint.

I'd agree its better than nothing as long as its executed very well. This is a simple statement to make. The statement should probably be,

"Is this going to be as good as it can be?"
 
knottyrich said:
crazy thought, i got grinder, sawzall, and welder....so i was kicking around the idea of make a roll bar/cage (six-point, two hoops' ) for the rig with square tube. think it will work? i was gonna flip it so it's like a diamond for maybe a little extra strength? every seen one made? is it gonna work? not a real wild driver/rock crawler. just wanted a little safety 4 me and the kiddos when boucing around.
thnx
Click to expand...

I will tell you this:
If you weld good, and know what you want to do, go ahead and do it.
People hat argue about round being the only way is because they base it on the rules for racing.
Remember racing get you going at speed multiple of any legal speed on the road or off.
You will never see a speed that will be more than what a square tube 1/8" roll cage will take.
As mentionned most of the heavy equipment I see has square tubing.
The only criteria here is a good weld.
And you don't have to make it a perfect shape as in follow every curve inside your truck to make it harder on you.
As long as you can make something to protect you if you roll it, and you do it yourself.:D
 
imiceman44 said:
People argue about round being the only way is because they base it on the rules for racing.
Remember racing get you going at speed multiple of any legal speed on the road or off.
You will never see a speed that will be more than what a square tube 1/8" roll cage will take.
Click to expand...



Going at "Racing speeds" or going 2mph and rolling down a rock face ledge multiple times will get you killed the same way. Having a roll cage that will handle a slow flop or roll over at slow speed is what is really important, and is what will more then likely happen in our world. "Racing speeds" is not the basis of why any of the slow going wheeling community builds cages, but the racing industry has a good standard of building cages to atleast start at for safety reasons.

It's a fact that square tube in not the BEST or SAFEST tube to use period. As I said there is a reason why it's not used in ANY racing industry. Racing speed or rock crawling speed or light trail duty speed should demand a quality cage period. A square tube cage, a poop pipe cage is dame sure better then nothing, but if it's not too much more to build a cage to atleast SOME kind of racing industry safety standard, why not start there for safety sake.
 
rdn2blazer said:
Going at "Racing speeds" or going 2mph and rolling down a rock face ledge multiple times will get you killed the same way. Having a roll cage that will handle a slow flop or roll over at slow speed is what is really important, and is what will more then likely happen in our world. "Racing speeds" is not the basis of why any of the slow going wheeling community builds cages, but the racing industry has a good standard of building cages to atleast start at for safety reasons.

It's a fact that square tube in not the BEST or SAFEST tube to use period. As I said there is a reason why it's not used in ANY racing industry. Racing speed or rock crawling speed or light trail duty speed should demand a quality cage period. A square tube cage, a poop pipe cage is dame sure better then nothing, but if it's not too much more to build a cage to atleast SOME kind of racing industry safety standard, why not start there for safety sake.
Click to expand...

You are so experienced I will not argue with you.
You know your stuff especially since ANY racing industry again apears as your reference.
I work in construction as an inspector, and I have yet to see any equipement with a round tube roll bar, and these equipments do roll some roll down a really long hill and they are heavier than any vehicle you will be taking off road.
I can't stand it when people start making them selves experts and trying to make everyone that sees things different as idiots all that based on unrelated sources (i.e. racing)
And you know that regulations for the construction field are tighter than racing because if things go wrong insurances have to pay, and no one likes to pay for a death or worse, injuries that keep you in hospitals.
Plus workers comp...
 
The only real issue I see is the fact that you can't bend square, this is really a non issue if you can weld properly and gusset every joint.

Like Kert said round can be loaded in any direction and retain strength, square does not. That said I would use 3/16 on my main bars and 1/8 in any bracing, which would make your cage pretty heavy.

I would also not bend a single piece, everything would be cut and welded together, this will require alot of skill on your part as you will need to gusset and brace every joint, some more than others.

Round is certainly a better way to go but if you have a bunch of square kicking around, or just want something different go for it.

Properly built it will be heavier than round(IMHO) and you will catch flack for it from dang near everyone

My cage is round but my links will be square
 
I think you could build a cage out of round tube- say .120 wall 1.75" DOM, and build a similar cage out of square tube that would be just as strong. But, one would end up weighing 5 times as much as the other. In a vehicle, that is a major concern - racing or not.

So maybe that Round DOM cage for my blazer weighed 120 pounds... that is 120lbs worth of worse milage, and 120lbs that's raising the center of gravity, making it that much more likely that I am going to flip over in the first place, and then actually need the cage there to save me...

So now lets make a cage out of square tube...
can't get DOM - better make the walls thicker

Bending square tube deforms 2 of the walls pretty good from what I have seen...
now the corners are not strong enough- better gusset the crap out of those now

Now my cage weighs 300 pounds, it puts too much weight up high, and I keep flipping over onto my ugly ass cage (that I only built out of square material to save 150 bucks), and now I can take that 150 bucks and try to find a new cab!:D
 
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Also from the industrial standpoint, the thicker the material a tractor's cage is made out of, the less it will be affected by "minor" incidents with; trucks, shovels, chains, falling building materials, etc.
On a normal day, not many wrecking balls, cinder blocks, and other tractors flying around the interior of my blazer threatening to compromise my cage...

I bet it would take a LOT of design work, and A LOT of 1.75" DOM to protect me in a rollover if my blazer weighed 60,000 lbs more than it does right now... and if my blazer already weighs that much, I might as well save thousands of dollars building a cage out of heavier, cheaper, thicker, square wall tubing...
 
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