steering box braces not really necessary?

[rdn2blazer]

You're not doing anybody a favor with this, particularly not to the casual readers.

yea well not all my threads can be so perfect.

 

[pvfjr]

Nope. The pitman arm acts as a lever; the longer the lever, the more force is exerted. This works both ways - the steering box exerts more force to the draglink and on down the line when the steering wheel is turned, but the draglink will also exert more force on the steering box and it's mount when the tires get pushed into a turn.

You're almost on the right track, but you're getting it backwards. A longer lever will give you more force against the fulcrum. In this case, and longer lever gives your steering system more leverage against your sector shaft, being that the sector shaft is the fulcrum. If your unsure of what it feels like to be the fulcrum, go hold a 1 ft pipe by one end and have a buddy hang a 10lb weight from the other end. Then hold a 10 ft pipe by one end and hang a 10lb weight at the other end, and don't hurt yourself.

A shorter pitman arm, or a longer steering arm, will give you more leverage. A longer pitman arm, or a shorter steering arm, will give you less leverage.

Think about a bicycle. If your driving gears (the ones at the pedal) are small, and your driven gears (the ones at the back wheel) are large, it puts you in low gear, with the most "leverage" or "power". If your driving gear is large and your driven gear is small, it puts you in a high gear where you have more speed, but less "leverage" or "power".

 

[pvfjr]

hmmmm...would a shorter pitman allow more torque to be placed on the draglink and components afterward? maybe a boost in steering force since the load on the pitman is closer to the sector shaft?

Yes, but less range of motion if the steering arm stays the same. Which, according to the information in this thread, would be a GOOD thing. In it's stock configuration, the steering box has more range of motion than the axle, which is bad cause it puts things in a bind. Now you can adjust the range of motion internally within the box like this guys talking about.

OR

You can put on a shorter pitman that gives you more steering force, less range of motion, and less torsional stress on your framerail. Kill three birds with one stone.

 

[rdn2blazer]

Yes, but less range of motion if the steering arm stays the same. Which, according to the information in this thread, would be a GOOD thing. In it's stock configuration, the steering box has more range of motion than the axle, which is bad cause it puts things in a bind. Now you can adjust the range of motion internally within the box like this guys talking about.

OR

You can put on a shorter pitman that gives you more steering force, less range of motion, and less torsional stress on your framerail. Kill three birds with one stone.

what I like hearing is solutions or problem solving like this. very good info pvfjr, thanks

 

[pvfjr]

what I like hearing is solutions or problem solving like this. very good info pvfjr, thanks

I appreciate the appreciation. I might take some pics showing the difference in my pitman arm and another one, and throw them into this thread. That'll make this a good reference for people to search for.

 

[jarheadk5]

You're almost on the right track, but you're getting it backwards....

I was halfway through typing a scathing post "suggesting" that you go re-take some physics classes...
Then I re-read what you posted for about the 85th time and it clicked - I need to re-take some physics classes... had my levers mixed up.



Where's the full-screen hand-slapping-forehead smilie when I need it?

 

[ntsqd]

I was halfway through typing a scathing post "suggesting" that you go re-take some physics classes...
Then I re-read what you posted for about the 85th time and it clicked - I need to re-take some physics classes... had my levers mixed up.



Where's the full-screen hand-slapping-forehead smilie when I need it?

I didn't see this until just now. That leverage thing can conflusticated.

The way I would limit the travel of the box would be to makke some spacers to fit over the input shaft. This would limit how far the sector gear can travel up and down the input shaft, which would also limit the amount the sector gear can turn the pitman shaft. The key to this approach is that by limiting the travel there is that you are effectively 'below' where the power is added so your stops need to be built with this in mind.

 

[goldwing2000]

but hes saying the system was designed to handle normal driving conditions and normal loads the truck was intended for.

I would venture to say that nobody on this board can even be remotely considered to be driving their vehicles under "normal" conditions. Bigger tires, bigger axles, harsh environments... that is our "norm" and everything we can do to make our rigs stronger is a good thing.

Also, by saying that a steering brace is "just a band-aid" and over-stroking is the "real problem", he is saying that the majority of stress is occuring only at full lock. We know that's simply not the case for us.

 

[gmc4cw]

Even if the box and knuckles both reached the end of their range of movement at ride height it would not eliminate stress on the frame. As the suspension cycles the distance between the box and steered knuckle changes.

Crossover is going to put side to side forces against the frame along with twisting the box along the same plane as the steering column. Stock push pull steering applies forward, back and twisting forces.

Something has to be the weak link. I had a box rip off the frame on the first trip I took after crossover. The trick is build so that the weak link is not a major failure. Breaking a TRE or draglink end is better then a frame.

 

[beater_k20]

this thread is just to reiderate the information I was given be the owner of Howe Performance steering, http://www.howeperformance.com. as last years Off Road Expo. the info that was given by him makes alot of sence to me so I am passing it on to you guys to get your opinions and comments on. this is not to say a steering box brace is not a good thing to run on a truck as an added support but is is really a band aid fix over a wound that will not go away with out the proper fix.

basically its common logic really, he said that a power steering pump is just like a tube bender, theres hydraulic pressure created when you turn your steering wheel which turns the box shaft which turns the tires. he said the reason why the frame cracks on gm trucks is that, that is the week link in the chain. he said you only see 4x4 usually have issue with the frames because those trucks see alot of force applied to the steering when being wheeled either in mud or rock crawling. in a 2wd truck almost never is there a problem with the frames because the truck is being used in "normal conditions" on the street for the most part. rarelly is the steering turned to its limit with alot of force repeatedly. so you dont see this in a 2x wery often.

in a 4x though the steering gets turned to its max limit with alot of force repetedly which finally over time fatigues the weak point which is the frame and crackes it or pulls the box off completely. there is allready aditional stress put on it with bigger tires and increased scrub forces and poor steering arm geometry and not to mention the added weight of roll cages, gear, and such anyways. thats not what a stock box was ment to handle. not to say it wont. he said the gm boxes are a very good strong design.

the problem is that they are mass produced and manufactured to stroke there full range of motion, which exceeds the rest of the steering components. so you have a situation where once everything is at there limits something is going to start to fail or give or flex. there is plenty of force in the powering steering to break stuff for sure as alot of guys have found out.

he said the fix is to readjust the box to not over stroke the steering components which takes alot of stress off the frame. he adjusts every box he builds. he said its the same reason he asks anyone looking to get a hydraulic assist kit to measure the max stroke of there steering stroke so he can set the stroke of the ram accordingly to not have more stroke then the steering.

so I had allready bought my ORD brace when I talked to him. he said run it, it couldn't hurt to have any additional support. its just the band aid not the correct fix of the problem. so what do you all think of this? it sounds like simple logic to me. since this company is known for there steering components and do alot of trophy trucks too I feel like I can trust what he said. yes I still will run my brace.

translation... "buy my steering box."

 

[RockinChevy]

I use the ORD steering brace and I still cracked the frame. Now I need to get the weld in plate to fix the frame. If you can use both, I would recommend it.

x2

 

[ntsqd]

While I wouldn't dream of belittling the force needed to lift a truck nearly on it's side up with the PS system, I do think that the force on the frame when the box has travel left and the linkage does not is being underestimated.

 

[Pookster]

Just because you visually cant see any motion, or deformation of the frame, does not mean that force is not being exerted. Your standing on the street, the street doesnt deflect or move, but you are still exerting force.


A steering box tecnically could spin over and over and over, by design of the worm gear. Adjustment to the box, only adjusts the lashes of the gears. This does not stop, or limit the turning function of the box.

But thats still besides the point. If you apply outside force to the wheels, and your forcing the wheels to stay still, then you will be applying force to the steering box. The force goes somewhere, and will try to break the weakest link. In the case of our trucks, this link happens to be where the steering box exerts its force, the frame rail.

Crossover steering is the only way to eliminate that force- at least in *that * particular direction.

Frame bracing is the only way to spread the load over a greater surface area.Welding in a repair patch is just making the area stronger. Each repair method addresses a different part of the equation.