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Welding on the frame
- Thread starter GRINCH
- Start date
So are you saying that we are supposed to take a torch to every weld we do and anneal it? My buddy works for DAKE press and they build massive h presses. On a 300 ton press that stands over 25' tall and weighs many tons do you think they are going to put that in a heat treat oven after its all welded together? No, they weld it, let the welds cool on there own, not quenching in water or anything that would result in hardening, and then put 300 tons of pressure on that frame and yah know what? They dont break 
Annealing is a very long process that isnt cheap either. The steel must be heated up to the upper transformation temperature, then slowly brought down in temperature over hours to truly releive all stress. Would it make the welds and frame much stronger? Oh hell yah, but think of the amount of time and money wasted on that process, that nobody ever does around here, and most have no problems. If your throwing water at your hot welds to cool them down... Then yah $hits gonna be brittle and crack.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
Honestly, this is what makes this forum and others like pirate laughable...everyone is an expert lol
You can only tell someone they're wrong so many times before you just have to let them find out on their own.
For those of you who still don't get it, I think you need to question your ability to take on a project like this, and actually do it properly.
Like I said before, there are time-tested ways of welding to frame to prevent vertical cracks from welding heat...why are these in use if they're not needed?
If you take an unbiased look at both sides of the argument, you'll see that one side (my side) is supported with facts n theory...take a look at the other side, no facts, no theory, just opinions.
By no means am I saying I know everything, and by no means am I saying you should take my word for it. just do some research...stress risers are a very real, very dangerous thing. That's why there are (or should be) certain ways to go about sticking something to your frame.
If you "fabricators" cannot do the research to build a vehicle safely, then why bother modifying it in the first place?
Have fun with your second rate fab and your death machine.
You can only tell someone they're wrong so many times before you just have to let them find out on their own.
For those of you who still don't get it, I think you need to question your ability to take on a project like this, and actually do it properly.
Like I said before, there are time-tested ways of welding to frame to prevent vertical cracks from welding heat...why are these in use if they're not needed?
If you take an unbiased look at both sides of the argument, you'll see that one side (my side) is supported with facts n theory...take a look at the other side, no facts, no theory, just opinions.
By no means am I saying I know everything, and by no means am I saying you should take my word for it. just do some research...stress risers are a very real, very dangerous thing. That's why there are (or should be) certain ways to go about sticking something to your frame.
If you "fabricators" cannot do the research to build a vehicle safely, then why bother modifying it in the first place?
Have fun with your second rate fab and your death machine.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
So are you saying that we are supposed to take a torch to every weld we do and anneal it? My buddy works for DAKE press and they build massive h presses. On a 300 ton press that stands over 25' tall and weighs many tons do you think they are going to put that in a heat treat oven after its all welded together? No, they weld it, let the welds cool on there own, not quenching in water or anything that would result in hardening, and then put 300 tons of pressure on that frame and yah know what? They dont break
Do they make those out of 1/8" steel? Didn't think so : )
Do they have 300 tons of force against them? Yes.
mr250twostroke
1/2 ton status
My dad can kick your dads a$$! I win 
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
That's exactly what I was getting at in an earlier post.
Using the "color change" method is something the old timers do. The problem with the old timers is they're methods are usually as outdated as they are. That could be the problem with ck5 due to the trucks being "vintage"
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
You're completely missing the point.
your like PETA.. I used to somewhat take your side of the argument with stress risers, but your such a self-righteous douche, I'm automatically gonna hate ya and argue with ya... CONGRATS!
funny how you come in and question everyone here's fab abilities and calling everyone unsafe hacks, yet you're automatically some condescending expert... who apparently can't weld for sh*t yourself cuz YOUR stuff failed.. again congrats!
enjoy your travels around the intraweb....
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
your like PETA.. I used to somewhat take your side of the argument with stress risers, but your such a self-righteous douche, I'm automatically gonna hate ya and argue with ya... CONGRATS!
funny how you come in and question everyone here's fab abilities and calling everyone unsafe hacks, yet you're automatically some condescending expert... who apparently can't weld for sh*t yourself cuz YOUR stuff failed.. again congrats!
enjoy your travels around the intraweb....
Not at all man. In fact, I am a huge fan of your work. Those comments were not directed towards everyone.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
Also, it was not my welding. But I'd say it was done well. If the welds were the issue, all would have broken. Not just the middle third of vertical welds...after than happened, I did some research...and I'm sharing what I've found. Again, why all the hate?
cuz your not sharing, you came in badmouthing us and being condescending....
prove me wrong and be a useful polite member for a while and I may change my mind, until than, your just another interweb arse...
prove me wrong and be a useful polite member for a while and I may change my mind, until than, your just another interweb arse...
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
To give you all an idea of why the frame did crack in the center...
This truck has a blown BB chevy and 30" wide slicks. Runs low 8's.
Cracks got rewelded when the cage and 4 link went in, haven't had any more problems, I feel due to the cage stiffening the twisting and front to back flex that all ladder framed vehicles have.
This truck has a blown BB chevy and 30" wide slicks. Runs low 8's.
Cracks got rewelded when the cage and 4 link went in, haven't had any more problems, I feel due to the cage stiffening the twisting and front to back flex that all ladder framed vehicles have.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
I was nothing but polite and helpful until some ck5 members were less than polite to me. I'm talking about trucks, you guys are taking personal shots at me...of course I'm gonna give it back
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
your first post... geeee, helpful and polite...
what , this came up in a google search and brought you here.... wow, thanks for gracing us with your presence...... any clue how many other threads this subject has been discussed in here prior? didn't think so...
your not talking trucks, your telling us all we build unsafe deathtraps, by all means, please be my friend...
Right because just welding over a crack is the correct fix. Hmm most ck5ers must be wrong when we drill the ends of the crack before welding.
It's all In the interpretation of how things get read it even typed.
Wait wait can I play.
So vertical welds are bad, I tend to agree, but not to the extent that if you have a vertical weld on a frame you are going to kill a busload of nuns on their way to take care of the orphans, while careening into a church bake sale for another busload of nuns that was killed by a vertical weld.
First off real world experience, not really that big of a deal on our trucks. We are usually using a material that is so overkill for the process and so much material as long as the weld is quality it will rarely fail to the point where it causes massive deconstruction of the frame.
Now onto actual vertical welds. Toyota body mounts are welded to the frame, vertically. I have seen several toyota frames fail but never at the weld always where the frame cross section becomes smaller. Same thing I have seen with frame failure on Chevy trucks. Fails where the crossection changes unless there are outside factors such as rust loose rivets or missing crossmembers.
Welding vertically to an engineered frame is different. I have built some stuff that we wanted to stay very light. So using a thinner gauge material the actual process of welding became more important but way beyond stress risers. Warping of the frame was a big deal.
If you wanted to you could take this far enough to say that a certain process of welding should not be used on a frame.
I have worked on a couple full bodied tractor pullers, well glass bodies but in the 4wd class, full ladder frames, thats what the rules dictate is a ladder frame. True they do have cages in them to help stiffen stuff up but several absolute vertical welds were done on the base frame. Some of these frames have been in use for 3 or 4 years, pulling every weekend for those last couple of years.
So basically (@ M1009Bomber) I am agreeing and disagreeing with you.
Honostly on our trucks everything is so overbuilt that I would be way more concerned with the quality of the weld rather than structural failure from a certain type of weld
So vertical welds are bad, I tend to agree, but not to the extent that if you have a vertical weld on a frame you are going to kill a busload of nuns on their way to take care of the orphans, while careening into a church bake sale for another busload of nuns that was killed by a vertical weld.
First off real world experience, not really that big of a deal on our trucks. We are usually using a material that is so overkill for the process and so much material as long as the weld is quality it will rarely fail to the point where it causes massive deconstruction of the frame.
Now onto actual vertical welds. Toyota body mounts are welded to the frame, vertically. I have seen several toyota frames fail but never at the weld always where the frame cross section becomes smaller. Same thing I have seen with frame failure on Chevy trucks. Fails where the crossection changes unless there are outside factors such as rust loose rivets or missing crossmembers.
Welding vertically to an engineered frame is different. I have built some stuff that we wanted to stay very light. So using a thinner gauge material the actual process of welding became more important but way beyond stress risers. Warping of the frame was a big deal.
If you wanted to you could take this far enough to say that a certain process of welding should not be used on a frame.
I have worked on a couple full bodied tractor pullers, well glass bodies but in the 4wd class, full ladder frames, thats what the rules dictate is a ladder frame. True they do have cages in them to help stiffen stuff up but several absolute vertical welds were done on the base frame. Some of these frames have been in use for 3 or 4 years, pulling every weekend for those last couple of years.
So basically (@ M1009Bomber) I am agreeing and disagreeing with you.
Honostly on our trucks everything is so overbuilt that I would be way more concerned with the quality of the weld rather than structural failure from a certain type of weld
So, what does this "proove"? What it's saying is nothing more then what others have said already, including myself. A weld repair has to be done correctly and with good design basically. No mention of stress risers that I see, just localized stress, which is corrected by design & method. It even describes how to go about this. But it says nothing of what you are saying regarding "stress risers" or "verticle welds"
As you can see it does say one of the exact things I said myself, which is nothing I have ever read before, but it's basic common sense regarding welding practices.
Quote:
Do not weld within 19 mm (0.75 in.) of the edge of a
frame flange.end quote.
For the record, I have been in the aerospace and aircraft industry for 26 years. I have three stick arc welding certifications, I've been a precision machinist for over 20 years with conventional machines and I ran and programmed multi axis live tooling cnc mills & lathes for 15 years. I have advances cnc programming experience and have machined just about any type of material out there.
I was also an inspector for a helicoptor company inspecting anything from raw castings, weldments, to precision machined parts using CMM inspection machines. I have my A & P aircraft mechanic and precision machinist licence. I have almost 10 years experience as a precision tech in complete assembly of satelites from machining one off parts for them to sub assembly to final assembly for launch. I have parts I have inspected flying all over the world in helicopters. I have parts I have machined floating out in space. I have helped build complete satelites that are now floating out in space.
I've been reading detailed assembly drawings and machining drawings including welding drawings for 26+ years. I'm not claiming I know everything by any means, but I sure as hell know a thing or two about materials and welding.
Whats your experience you bring to the table big shot? I see you have posted no pictures of your work yet.
