2000 Astro 4.3 Vortex Problem

[Joe In Montana]

Strange problem here.....

Wife complained that the engine has a hard time starting. I didn't believe her but I decided to "look at it when I can" which met with a frown (I tell her that her face is gonna get stuck like that someday and she'll look like those "Apple People Dolls" she made with my mom) :/

Here's what I found:

No CEL/SES.
All fluids ok.
Recent, 1 week old fuel filter, normal service interval with LOF
Drove it myself ... ^no abnormalities note by me until.........^

A week ago, it didn't want to start for me even though it always has - no throttle, just turn key and drive is SOP.

This time it truly flooded during a not-very cold morning (22F). FI engines DON'T FLOOD, and that's been a mantra for many years for me.

I actually had to WOT/Clear Flood Mode to get it started, and it limped on a couple of cylinders until they all cleared out and it ran smooth. again no CEL.

Fuel pressure is 60#Pre start boost, 53#running.
3,400 feet altitude BARO reporting correct for altitude.
Tip off fuel pressure jumps to 60 and drops slowly as RPM increases.... very normal.
CTS reporting correct cold overnight soak and no electrical drop outs during engine temp climbs to normal 195F... I assume CTS is OK too.
TPS smooth and normal at idle/closed and WOT
Injection PW fluctuates normally
Oxygen sensors all reporting nothing out of normal; crosscounts on S1 position good and lively.
Battery voltage normal, 0.001 VAC ripple from alternator = ok.
CC voltage above 11.7

While testing for the last few days it starts and runs fine. Again, no codes.

I know that the fuel pump idle pressure is right on the lowest limit, but the jump on Tip Off indicates to me that the pump is OK too.

The 53# fuel idle pressure is likely from our baseline altitude (3400 feet) here in Montana like I stated.

I have a new fuel pump for it, but just cannot see replacing one that tests out normal.

The woman is hinky on driving it right now but I think I need to have it act up more definitively before I start changing parts at this moment.

Any of you guys have any thoughts?

 

[sweetk30]

i know there is huge problems with o.e.m spider injector units . the new updates put the popets on the ends like real injectors not up in the splitter manifold like original .

if you trace down you need one let me know . . . I have a new in box update unit I don't need.

 

[Joe In Montana]

Yeah - I just did two CPFI to MSI conversions this past week and I like them a whole lot!

I will keep that in mind for the new spider though since that's a very generous thing to do. Thanks.

For the next day or so I'm just gonna hover on this van - even though my wife's gonna kill me - and try to make it fail in some way that I can actually diagnose. More than half the fun is in diagnosing the problem and this one has me kinda dragging my heels yet.

PM sent.

 

[Joe In Montana]

Just for the rest of the crowd here: this Astro Van has 267,890 miles on it wiith the original injector head, transmission, fuel pump, water pump and alternator.

Belt was changed once as was the fan clutch and four sets of tires and brakes 3x. Wipers too.... lots off wipers.

With regular oil, oil filter, transmission services and never allowing the battery to just sit around in subzero temp without a charge maintainer on it and -40F coolant, it also is working quite well so far.

 

[black dawg]

Any extended crank hot start issues? FPR failures are really common with these (leaking fuel into intake).
What are the fuel trims?

 

[Joe In Montana]

Fuel Trim is mostly 127-128 pretty much all the time, crosscounts are good and the hard start is inconsistent.

Quite a few of my other vehicles and even friend's vehicles are experiencing some extended crank times too, also intermittently although much more so than a month ago.

We suspect fuel volitility problems, eg: fireproof gasoline. My only carbureted vehicle is my '86 K5 and it has no problem other than that of an engine without a choke: it needs some fancy foot work to get it started in almost all situations anyway, so no biggie there.

This morning, 05:30 and the Astro started right up, so this is somewhat consistent with it's inconsistencies.

I'm still miffed about that time it flooded though, but I know a diaphragm in the pressure regulator would not heal up and work well if it was busted one time only.

I dunnow.

 

[black dawg]

I do see from time to time (generally with big swings in temperature...to the colder) fuel injected stuff get flooded like that. Cars that have never done it before, and never seen them do it again. Usually one or two cars a winter come in no start that are just flooded.

If it happens often enough, I would be monitoring ECT at every cold start.

 

[diesel4me]

I wonder if a little water in the gas could freeze in the fuel pressure regulator and cause it to flood ?..

 

[Joe In Montana]

I do see from time to time (generally with big swings in temperature...to the colder) fuel injected stuff get flooded like that. Cars that have never done it before, and never seen them do it again. Usually one or two cars a winter come in no start that are just flooded.

If it happens often enough, I would be monitoring ECT at every cold start.

I tested the ECT yesterday both before start up and then I watched it climb all the way up to normal running temp > 198F, which is good enuff for a 195F thermostat.

I know an OPEN ECT will default the ECM to -45F, and I haven't seen that number on it at all.

I just got back from a 140 mile round trip to Missoula from Hamilton and the three starts were uneventful - one was to fill up at Sinclair where I always buy fuel in town. The first start was at 11F, the second was at 17F - but the engine was already warmed up after only a 15 minute stop, and the last start up was in the underground garage at 28F with the engine 1-hour cool off - warm yet.

This is nuts-o.

 

[Joe In Montana]

I wonder if a little water in the gas could freeze in the fuel pressure regulator and cause it to flood ?..

Hmmmmm. Interesting thought.

Although all my years I have only seen water (rain water, actually) get into a tank at fill up when the rain was so hard you had to put your body over the fill neck to keep rain out. Montana doesn't use gas pump boots or anti splash rubber on their pumps for some arcane reason.

Other than that - water has never been in fuel to any significant amount in all my fifty+ years in the business.

I'll keep this in mind though - can't hurt!

 

[sweetk30]

just a idea . . . . .

vortec dist caps have known problems with heavy corrosion build up inside and long crank or no start or act like timming 40-50* out of sink .

have you pulled the cap and checked it and rotor ? this problem is huge with temp/moisture swings.

 

[Joe In Montana]

just a idea . . . . .

vortec dist caps have known problems with heavy corrosion build up inside and long crank or no start or act like timming 40-50* out of sink .

have you pulled the cap and checked it and rotor ? this problem is huge with temp/moisture swings.

Had that problem last summer and changed it out for the new style blue cap and rotor. They are supposed to be an upgrade to the OE style parts.

I ran a DIS test on the plugs and wires all the way from the coil to the plugs (double plat NGKs, 11K ago) - and got 8.5K at the coil wire and 6-7.5K at the plugs. With the air gap of the rotor-to-cap in mind, I think that's pretty much OK.

 

[diesel4me]

Wide swings in temparature can cause condensation to build up in a fuel tank--not just the one on your vehicle,but the ones at a gas station or fuel depot if they are above ground..
When its fall here and temps can be like 30 at night and hit 50-60 during the day,a surprising amount of water can build up in a fuel tank..

Also many gas stations with underground tanks end up having water get in them--when I see a fuel tanker unloading at a gas station on a rainy day,I go elsewhere to fill up..Ethanol laced gas also disperses water so it looks cloudy,instead of a layer lying on the bottom of the tank,making it harder to see and diagnose..

I often wonder just how accurate the "10%" of ethanol is measured too--I have gotten a few batches of gasoline my mowers and tractors didn't like at all--they started hard,sputtered until they got hot,then seemed to run TOO hot--too much alcohol in it ?..it stunk like burning rubbing alcohol out of the exhaust too...bought gas at a different place and dumped that crap into my fire pit--refilled with the other gas,and all the problems vanished..

 

[Team208Motorsports]

I still say spider. All it takes is a crack in a line or 2. They you are relying on cyl vacuum to pull the fuel in. Only real place it would be effected is starting.

 

[Joe In Montana]

Yeah - Team20 - I hear you and I think you're right - it's just me being stubborn and wanting to diagnose it that makes it hard to understand.

If it were a customer's vehicle - I'd spend as much time on the diagnosis and figuring out the inconsistency of the problem that would make me want to make very sure I was spending the customer's money correctly and wisely.

I can 'see' your idea of the cause for the problem in my mind - I just cannot see it doing it only once in a while - that's all.

 

[black dawg]

All of the cracked lines I have seen caused a lean miss/partial miss on that cylinder (nozzle not being popped, no fuel to that port), and a rich condition on another cyl or 2 from fuel sprayed from the crack.

But All the line cracks that I have seen were up high....I have heard of some split at the poppet.

 

[Joe In Montana]

Wide swings in temparature can cause condensation to build up in a fuel tank--not just the one on your vehicle,but the ones at a gas station or fuel depot if they are above ground..
When its fall here and temps can be like 30 at night and hit 50-60 during the day,a surprising amount of water can build up in a fuel tank..

Also many gas stations with underground tanks end up having water get in them--when I see a fuel tanker unloading at a gas station on a rainy day,I go elsewhere to fill up..Ethanol laced gas also disperses water so it looks cloudy,instead of a layer lying on the bottom of the tank,making it harder to see and diagnose..

I often wonder just how accurate the "10%" of ethanol is measured too--I have gotten a few batches of gasoline my mowers and tractors didn't like at all--they started hard,sputtered until they got hot,then seemed to run TOO hot--too much alcohol in it ?..it stunk like burning rubbing alcohol out of the exhaust too...bought gas at a different place and dumped that crap into my fire pit--refilled with the other gas,and all the problems vanished..

I only have gas tank above ground notations in four states - California, Arizona, Montana and New Mexico and to the last one of them, all above ground commercial tanks were outlawed years ago - not to say the occasional farmer won't have one though.

I was part of the plan (Tokheim) to make sure that fuel tanks in all the gas stations in SoCal were removed if they were single-wall units and were replaced with triple wall units in case of a leak/failure in an earthquake or some other unnatural failure to the inner tank wall somehow.

There is a whole system of constant real-time checks-and-rechecks and alarms for water and other contaminants in the tanks and some of those alarms signify that a non-product item had entered the tank and it will not allow any product out of the tank until samples and such are taken and a new passcode is entered to make the pumps run again.

But all the new above ground fill necks have to have water drain-away platforms to keep water intrusion from happening since water and ethanol make a very corrosive combination, and the underground tanks are NOT stainless steel either!

So water-in-the-fuel is pretty much impossible any more and even if it happened, the system will shut down to protect the consumer/customer and the vending merchant too from destruction of their very expensive DOT-Approved tanks and monitoring system.

____________________________________________________________​

In my experience - the possibility of condensation being 'created' in a vehicle tank - although rare or very limited - has to be over a significant period of time - like a vehicle put to rest for the winter with a less than full tank of fuel.

In such a situation where a unit is put away for a season, it's always best to completely fill the tank to keep it from inhaling and exhaling with every temperature change. The more full the tank is - coupled with the normal thermally-induced contraction and expansion of the fuel - will leave a lot less fuel surface area to be exposed to potential airborne moisture and contaminants.

Also - adding a fuel stabilizer to the tank is a good idea IF you put it in after the vehicle is parked.

The reason is that the stabilizer forms a very thin paraffin film or cover on top of the fuel that will keep air-to-fuel contact to zero. The only problem it that if you allow the vehicle to move after that film is created, then the sloshing motion will break that film and you've lost your protection from vaporization losses and oxygen and moisture intrusion.

[/podium]​

 

[Joe In Montana]

All of the cracked lines I have seen caused a lean miss/partial miss on that cylinder (nozzle not being popped, no fuel to that port), and a rich condition on another cyl or 2 from fuel sprayed from the crack.

But All the line cracks that I have seen were up high....I have heard of some split at the poppet.

Good point. Although I've never seen a cracked line - this makes sense to me.

During scans though - there have not been any one or two cylinders that reported problems and the engine runs smooth and starts about 80% of the time, normally.

 

[Team208Motorsports]

I just cannot see it doing it only once in a while

Missed that part. It would depend on where the rig is trying to fire sync wise.

Gotta remember these things are bank to bank correction, not individual cyl. Some are not even bank to bank. Fuel trims can make it hard to spot unless a poppet is just dead. Trims are just bank average. 14.7+14.7+14.7 has the same average as 14.7+13+16.4. Scary part is that average is all good to an ECM and will run smooth. Pulling plugs and reading would give you a better idea on where the issue is close to. You should find a lean plug next to fat. The lean is usually where the problem is with broken web.

 

[Team208Motorsports]

Rare case...... Seen where the bearing play is getting out of spec and the crank sensor would lose sync and cause misfire. Really noticed it under hard acceleration and some hard starts.