What's new
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

220 single phase welder w/120 3 prong house plug?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My 220 outlet is 2 phase

[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif2 phase?????






NOT!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, well in the Navy everything on the ship is 2 phase.

[/ QUOTE ] not everything on the boat the power outlets for the jets are 3 phase
 
oh, and just how old do you have to go to have no ground in a house? 1930s?
 
I live in a rural area that most of the houses were built in the 50's and don't have a grounding systems.They didn't even start making equipment with 3 prong plugs until late 50's and it was much later will it actually took off and was required. Don't know exact year I let someone borrow my school notes to study for is E.J-test. I even went to one house a while back to help my plumber friend and it still had the old knob & wire but wasn't in use anymore they had switched to a newer type panel. I still have screw in fuses in my current house. 3 Subpanels, one with screw in fuses for a dryer (3 prong no ground) and 2 that have actually breakers one for a electrical heater and other for a water heater. Last house I lived in had a panel with breakers but still no ground system.

Found it 1975 was first year new houses were required to have 3 prong receptacles with ground system. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif
 
You guys AREN'T GOING NEAR MY HOUSE!!! LOL /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Before you get started....
Check wire size...breaker size...etc..
also make sure you use a outlet that is rated for the amperage pulled by the welder..

There's a little more to it then changing a plug..
I'd be carefull..you don't need any fires!!! /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
for a dryer (3 prong no ground)

[/ QUOTE ]

so what part of the dryer uses 120 power?
the 3 prongs are 120 / 120 / ground
unless you say the timers run on 120v using the third wire as a Neutral you arent convincing me
2 prong 120v doesnt mean there is no ground system
I also lived in an old house with the glass insolators and wires strung by twisting them to the glass
 
My casa was built in 1949 with knob and tube wiring. None of the receptacles in the house were grounded EXCEPT the ones in the kitchen, bathroom, and garage, and this was done by taking a bare copper wire from the grounded receptacle and soldering the other end to the closest watr pipe. It's how they used to do it.

Tim, a STRAIGHT 220v circiut is just two hots and a ground. As someone mentioned, the hots are 180 degrees out of phase, so the current comes out on one hot and goes back on the other, but since were talkin AC it the current actually changes direction 60 times a minute, hence 60 hertz (cycles per second). Not all circuits require a neutral. I hook up electrical all day, 5 days a week. I did a 5 year apprenticeship, and I've been a JW for four years now. So I have nine years in the trade. So, along the way, I learned a little bit about electricity.

Also like someone mentioned, it's not as simple as just swapping out a receptacle. Breaker size and wire size are critical to a safe install. Since he is changing out a 30 amp dryer receptacle, he'll prolly be alright. My 175 amp mig requires a 50 amp receptacle, tho.


Electricians do it 'till it Hz!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Go to this site, http://www.leviton.com/sections/techsupp/diagrams1.htm
Leviton may know a thing or 2 about plugs.
My welders, as most large welders do, uses a 6-50R.
No neutral and electrical code compliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually opened up one in the back? You will find that there is a bond strap from nuetral to ground. If there is any 120 volt usage (which on a dryer or a stove there will be for lights and timers) it will go back to the panel on this wire. They may simplify it and say it is a ground but IT CAN AND IN SIME INSTANCES WILL HAVE CURRENT ON IT so you must be carefull since saying it is a ground wire is misleading.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tim, a STRAIGHT 220v circiut is just two hots and a ground. As someone mentioned, the hots are 180 degrees out of phase, so the current comes out on one hot and goes back on the other, but since were talkin AC it the current actually changes direction 60 times a minute, hence 60 hertz (cycles per second).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, further research agrees with you. Having worked with so many electronic circuits I never think of things that way. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif But yes, you're correct, no neutal is required because current does not need a path back to the source with the other hot 180* out of phase with it.

And, of course, grounding the case is necessary for safety.

I understand now completely.

Having current purposely flow down a ground line is certainly an unacceptable practice, but if the wire has two hots and a ground, unless there is a problem with the operation, it should never flow down the ground.
 
Okay, the first thing to do is check out the welder and see if it is a 3 wire or 4 wire equipment. If the cord does not have the required number of conductors, replace it with a properly sized cord with the correct plug on it. Replace the receptacle with a receptacle that matches the plug. Check breaker sizes and ratings of the cord, circuit conductors and plug receptacles to ensure they are properly sized and protected.

Now, if it is a 3 wire, and third wire is bonded to the metal case of the welder, this should be a ground, newer welders should not use this as a neutral. Neutral and ground are not the same. Older welders may do this, but it is not an ideal situation.

Answer this for me, if you are using the ground, that is bonded to the metal case for a neutral for a 120V circuit, there will be some current on that ground/neutral, including the case. Wouldn't this cause the case to be energized, thereby shocking someone who touches it?

yes, this can happen, I've seen instances where a neutral was incorrectly bonded to ground out in a circuit, this backfed current through the ground system, and the person's kitchen sink was live, they got shocked everytime they touched it.

I believe the idea on dryers using 120 to run the timer is false, If I remember correctly, there is a stepdown transformer, 240VAC to 12 or 24VDC. I will have to look at my dryer a little closer to be sure.

When I am preparing plans for projects, if I am feeding a 240V load, it gets 2 hots and a ground, not a neutral. If it is 240V, with 120V control, it either gets 2 hots, a neutral and ground, or it gets 2 hots and a ground, and the 120V control is fed by a separate circuit with 1 hot, neutral, and a ground (the ground may be shared between the 240V circuit and 120V circuit only if the circuit conductors are ran in the same conduit or multiconductor cable.

Any questions, please ask away. If you need help sizing conductors, breakers, etc. let me know, I'll give you a hand.
 
Thank you everyone for the help. My welder is just a small ark welder that pulls 25 amps. So my 30 amp plug will be fine. My washer and dryer is a stackable unit, so the washer gets its 120 from the 220 plug. So yes the neutral is needed for my washer and dryer.

The reason that I thought that my power was two phase is because I know that one leg is 180* out of phase with the other. I guess I need to look a little into some basic AC theory.
 
I put a plug on my welder that matches the one on our clothes dryer--and made a long extension cord out of 10 gauge romex cable to reach the welder--this works well up to about 100 amps,if I turn it up higher than that the breaker will trip,since its a 30 amp curcuit to the dryer,but I have welded everything I needed to,even heavier metal like frames,etc,without needing much more then 75 amps.I dont use it a lot,or everyday,so this was a way for me to avoid running a whole new outlet and breaker to the garage--my friend used his electric stove outlet the same way--his is a 50 amp outlet for the stove,so he can use his welder at higher amp setting with no problems--I get by with mine no problems--except when someone wants to dry the laundry. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gifI never realized how many different 220v outlets and plugs there are till I went to hook up the welder! /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif--I would say its best to consult an electrician if your not sure about the wiring--your house insurance may not cover any damage caused by improper wiring installed by a non licenced person!.
 
Really all you need to do is put a 4 wire plug on your welder, we can discuss theory and "what has been done before" forever. Yes they still make 3 prong receptacles and they are still in use but new installations in "residential wiring" they must be of 4 prong type. You can not put a 3 prong reptacle where there was a 4 prong without breaking code compliance (therefore voiding your fire insurance with most companys).

The thing I was trying to get at when I got sucked into this discussion , is , if there is a bonding strap on the back of the welder that bonds the nuetral to ground then this must be removed (or creates a parallel circuit halving resistance along wire and if there is any current it will split between the two paths which can be bad , this is ohms law and fact)

A lot of appliance installers forget to do this(or don't know too) and it can cause other issues.

On 3 prong instillation the ground wire goes straight back to the panel and is bonded to the nuetral so it is not a issue.
 
I agree with what you are saying except that it's not an issue since the ground and neutral go back to the same place. The ground and neutral do terminate on the same bus in the panel, however they serve different purposes in the circuit, so one wire can not and should not serve as both neutral and ground, it will work, but it's not properly grounded, and the potential for getting shocked or starting a fire is increased.
 
I got the dryer cord from Home Depot today. 2 hots and ground and it worked great. Thanks for all your help! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

Now I just need to practice /forums/images/graemlins/weld.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Having current purposely flow down a ground line is certainly an unacceptable practice, but if the wire has two hots and a ground, unless there is a problem with the operation, it should never flow down the ground.



[/ QUOTE ]


/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gifRIGHT! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tim, a STRAIGHT 220v circiut is just two hots and a ground. As someone mentioned, the hots are 180 degrees out of phase, so the current comes out on one hot and goes back on the other, but since were talkin AC it the current actually changes direction 60 times a minute, hence 60 hertz (cycles per second).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, further research agrees with you. Having worked with so many electronic circuits I never think of things that way. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif But yes, you're correct, no neutal is required because current does not need a path back to the source with the other hot 180* out of phase with it.

And, of course, grounding the case is necessary for safety.

I understand now completely.

Having current purposely flow down a ground line is certainly an unacceptable practice, but if the wire has two hots and a ground, unless there is a problem with the operation, it should never flow down the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're agreeing then that phasing is 180 out?

Physically impossible. Check your phasing at the tranny. Depending on where you live it may be anything from 44-4.16kv to 120.

It may be 3 phase or single phase, but either way (208-120 or 240-120). You can take two legs from that and have 240. Just because you have two hots, a neutral and a ground don't assume the phases are 180 out. A, B and C are all 120 degrees apart, therefore if you have a bug with 22.9/13.8 on the primary, you'll have 600/347 for example on the seconday. Unless it's delta (and you have an unestablished ground) it'll be 600 to ground.

It's impossible to plug a single primary phase into a can and get 2 or more phases out of it. You may have 6 legs for example, depending on how the transformer is tapped (2 hots and a neutral is common) but you will only have 6 single phases coming out.

Somewhere in philly and somewhere in cincinatti there are generators pumping out dual phase, but that's very old and obsolete. All consumer grade power in north America is 3 phase.

If you drop a phase because of a bird, or lightning for example your motors won't work but your lights may. That's still called single phasing, because in order for the delta triangle to be complete you need 3 points. 3 lines between the points. If you drop 1 point, you drop 2 lines and there for are back to single phase...

Also, for the dude that said something about wires being twisted to his house, that's called "mauling". I can do that with primary or secondary voltages to this day. Although, it's much easier to use a preform, service grip or bethea.

Is there anything else you would like to know about power transformation and distribution?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Physically impossible. Check your phasing at the tranny. Depending on where you live it may be anything from 44-4.16kv to 120.

It may be 3 phase or single phase, but either way (208-120 or 240-120). You can take two legs from that and have 240. Just because you have two hots, a neutral and a ground don't assume the phases are 180 out.

It's impossible to plug a single primary phase into a can
and get 2 or more phases out of it. You may have 6 legs for example, depending on how the transformer is tapped (2 hots and a neutral is common) but you will only have 6 single phases coming out.

[/ QUOTE ]

180* or 120* is a moot point in my opinion. Point is that the voltages are out of phase with each other.

As to the 2nd point, you're absolutely correct. No way to create two phases of power from one. That makes no sense to even think such a thing in my opinion. If there is a way, I've certainly never heard of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's impossible to plug a single primary phase into a can and get 2 or more phases out of it. You may have 6 legs for example, depending on how the transformer is tapped (2 hots and a neutral is common) but you will only have 6 single phases coming out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may want to do a little more research. Like maybe at www.howstuffworks.com
Single phase consumer power is line A and line B 180* out of phase. And it is generated by a single line fed into a tansformer that hangs on the pole outside your house.
Read this..... http://science.howstuffworks.com/power9.htm
 
I hope he is quoting RMS figures anyyway. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how you can get 240 volts RMS from two phases 120* from each other.

As to that site you linked to, it still does not explain how a transformer creates two phases. It also states that some distribution boxes have two phases right there.

Considering there is no way to speed up or slow down the flow of electricity, how can you create two phases from one with a transformer?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest Posts

Top Bottom