A modern day K5?

[ZombieBlazer]

The Unimog's I've seen look out of our price range though.. or do you mean a scaled down one?

 

[Greg72]

Nothing worth a damn is going to be cheap. I'm not even going to play along with that part of your thought process.....

Unimog is utilitarian, has a German sensibility of design and insanely good engineering behind it. If you love German cars already (which it sounds like you do) then in the 4x4 realm the UniMog is the vehicle to aspire to.

-G

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Nothing worth a damn is going to be cheap. I'm not even going to play along with that part of your thought process.....

This is something I don't know if I made clear though.. my thinking is that I was hoping a vehicle could be designed that we all could replicate using simple standardized stock materials.

But the key is to use techniques that ANYONE could do easily with basic skills and simple and cheap tools - relative to the way things are done now.

This is why I am so interested in flat panel vehicle designs.

In the end if you include our own labor and we were making as much as union labor our vehicle would probably cost a fortune.. but I think most people have a bit more time than money which is why we go the route we do trying to build our own vehicles.

It might even take us longer to build our own vehicles this way... but I think it would be cheaper. That's my hope at least.

The reason I think this is superior is because the car companies have us at their mercy because you need large stamped or molded parts if you try to repair their vehicles.

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Your argument is getting more and more contradictory....

If you want to build a truck so that you can drive off into nature all by yourself (expedition style) then you absolutely need to be a good mechanic and know how to fix almost every part of your truck yourself. That style of wheeling is not for the "checkbook crowd"... You break down in the middle of nowhere, you could actually die out there before anyone finds you. If you think you (or your open source community) can design a vehicle that won't ever break out on the trail you are sorely mistaken....perhaps fatally, if you choose to stay ignorant about the intricacies of auto repair.

You are jumping to conclusions about what my thinking is.....

I never said I wasn't interested in learning about this aspect...

My issue is all the body work that is necessary if you want to have a decent vehicle - a daily driver. If you want a primary vehicle that you can wheel in and take off road. Because if you need 2 vehicles that is a lot of money tied up in vehicles for someone who doesn't have a lot of money.

I am ALL about self sufficiency.. that goes for being able to work on and repair our vehicles ourselves.. that is the whole premise of my idea.

THAT was what was so great about VWs IMHO.

I am someone who put my own transmission in on the side of the road outside my apartment complex because of my inherent distrust of people who work on vehicles in big cities... and I had never done it before. haha

But that is the beauty of having ONE vehicle that a large number of people are familiar with. I think we could and should take the VW concept to a whole new extreme.. that's my view of a open source 4x4.

 

[blazinzuk]

Okay so I am sorry if this comes across as a jerk.

Have you ever been involved in a ground up build of a car?

The amount of hours put into just fitting panels correctly ( yes even dead flat panels on a Jeep) is pretty substantial.

I have helped build an entire flatfender body pretty much from scratch. Yes most of the panels are flat but flat panels suffer from 2 very very difficult problems. They vibrate a ton and they aren't very rigid. Unless you use a heavy gauge material then the rig becomes heavy. Heavy = unreliable because you simply have to make everything correspondingly huge.

So all those nice flat panels have to have some sort of channel attached to add rigidity or they have to have bends in them.

Just look at a VWs floorpan. Not a simple piece to reproduce at all unless you have some very specialized tooling, or a very large very expensive stamping machine.

I see you have talked about the willys Jeep too. Ever driven one? Dead bone stock. They suck. I mean they really really really really really really suck. There was much better technology around in the day, but they needed something cheap easy to fix and mostly reliable. And they were for their intended purpose, but those Jeeps always needed tinkering on. Always something needing fixed or something

Now onto your reliability statements. I understand the VW was simple but reliable. Sure by there standards back then. Build a completely new VW dead bone stock. Then by any brand new vehicle off the lot put em both on a track and run em around for 200k or so. I will bet a large sum of money the VW breaks first.

Thats the thing with cars now a days. In all reality I don't feel like working on my 2001 grand prix is any harder than working on my say 63 Dodge dart. Different sure, harder no way. You just have to learn a couple of new things.

Problem with doing some sort of open source vehicle is this. The requirements of a large large scale open source rig are so huge and varied that only doing one or two variety just wouldn't cut it.

I am slowly inching towards an automotive Valhalla, that place involves several vehicles because a long time ago I realized I wanted to take just about everything I have ever owned to an extreme. Doesn't matter if its a 4x4 or not. You take something to an extreme one direction and other directions suffer.

The caveat to this is the antithesis to this whole idea. There are some newer vehicles that off road better than a stock k5 could, but they also go down the highway thousands of times better. Problem with them, they are usually complicated. Just look at Rovers favorite rears suspension. The watts link. Great suspension but tons of parts of tons of joints all those things cost money.

I don't want to sound like to much a downer but an open source 4x4 would work as good for me as my someone who considers off roading going through a large puddle after it rains.

Just gonna be another vehicle full of compromises that I have to change until it suits me.

Shoot dang near every vehicle you have listed I have thought about what I would change it if I could ever afford one. There are changes on every single one.

For inspiration you might look to newer technology, banish carbon fiber and aluminum from your head all those add up to $$$$$$$$

Look up the cardboard bicycle.

Or the African wooden car.

If you want to achieve a vehicle for 20k or so that looks alright and is an awesome wheeler and is really reliable you are going to have to start looking outside of the automotive world completely.

And BTW for something like you are talking about you are going to have to turn to those of us who have dedicated our lives to this autmotive pursuit at some point. Because we are the ones who know how to build things.

Like I said I don't mean to sound like a jerk but when you get down to brass tacks I don't want anything utilitarians anymore. When my Jimmy is done it will have power windows power locks, air conditioning, a nice stereo, heated seats, on board navigation, all the luxuries of a brand new car. And it will probably cost me 20k just in parts to get it all done like that, of course if you include my labor your probably looking at that number being closer to 100k.

Oh yah and my crawler will have heated seats too.

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Blazinuk.. I appreciate the post. I like hearing your different points.. a lot of them I have thought of. I realize that on all those old German cars they had pressed metal pieces too for rigidity. But also realize that those vehicles had no true internal frames either... they used exoskeletons.

The Blazers even use this similar kind of system even with a rigid frame.. but realzie that most of us here want a vehicle with a roll bar.... so whay have that complex body for rgidity WITH a roll cage?

That's total redundancy... do the old VWs need those complex flat pressed panels if they had incorporated a stronger roll cage? Look in the images I posted a few posts ago and they had stronger frame type cage as well for strength.

This is the beauty of designing a purpose built vehicle as a open source super budget off road vehicle.. the open source VW bug of 4x4s.

But I realize a lot of people wouldn't want this... I don't know if anyone else would want this.. I only know what I want. But you don't know if you don't try or don't ask.

Also, the carbon fiber thing was just a joke.. It would be cool to have a carbon fiber Blazer top if money was no object. I think it's actually the best application for it I can imagine.. it would make the Blazer top super light and strong.. making it actually capable of being taken off frequently. But too much money right now...

Also.. in regards to reliability.. the key is taking the mentality of the old VWs and applying it to modern technology... I realize many modern cars are capable of being worked on.. but who wants to? They aren't designed to be worked on anymore from my perspective.

And I realize I would need help... that's why I brought it up here.. if I could do it myself I'd have done it already.

All I know is that they made cool vehicles back in the day... and they don't seem to anymore from what I have seen. It seems they can't because of the rules they have to deal with. I think we might be able to get around those ourselves.. if we are going to go to all the work we do.. why not make life easier on ourselves instead of so hard?

Basically what I imagine is a Blazer chassis with a slightly more old school and durable drivetrain.. and a kind of landrover defender body.. like this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O054JA1rzxI

This is the kind of vehicle I love... I wish the Blazers were more like this - to me with offroad vehicles ugliness is beauty.

Imagine if you took this concept of totally simple and utilitarian but then add in some modern touches. That's basically what the Icon guy did but I think you can still do that without breaking the bank.

Also... is that landrover in the video above going to "hual ass".. haha no... but what more do you really need? That's my take on it..if those old Jeeps were good enough to win WWII... what more do we need? That's my point about all the over kill I see. I mean sure if you can afford that then great.. but mos people can't. I view the vehicle I want as a modern day horse... I'd be happy with that.

 

[blazinzuk]

Well just to keep the dicussion going.

Here the speed limit on the interstates is 75 mph. The highway right next to my house is 65. So the first modern touch would need to be a decent powerplant. An old series 2 won't do 65 let alone 75. And if it could it would take several miles for it to stop

I have worked on a couple of old Rovers. Simple is not a word that comes to mind. Needlessly complicated is one that comes to mind though.

For something to be truly simple to fix there needs to be alot of that one thing. Take a small block. Its considered a pretty simple motor but no more simple than a Ford small block. Or a Chrysler motor or for that matter a honda motor.

No matter how simple your car is you still need a basic understanding of mechanics to work on something. This is something most poeple in the 30s 40s and 50s had. You know why they had it? Cause stuff broke down all the time. Broke down enough that you needed to be able to fix the simple stuff. One of the reasons that many people don't have the knowledge or choose to work on stuff is its become more reliable, reliable enough that a basic knowledge is no longer required to own a car. In the 30s you had to know how to work on a car if you owned it.

Another question how more old school do you want the drivetrain to be than what came in say a 76 blazer. Want to go back to points?

Gear driven t cases are about as old school as you get, 3 speed automatics and 4 speed manuals. Honestly no thanks man gimme more speeds any day. I will take the trade off in complication for a more efficient overall vehicle.

Once again not trying to discourage you, but it sounds like your automotive knowledge is kind of slim. When you are talking production you have to add in things like specialized tools. Consumables, electricity, heat ( if its winter) I mean everything has to be added up and it adds up really really really fast

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Well just to keep the dicussion going.

Here the speed limit on the interstates is 75 mph. The highway right next to my house is 65. So the first modern touch would need to be a decent powerplant. An old series 2 won't do 65 let alone 75. And if it could it would take several miles for it to stop

That's the MAX speed limit.. you don't have to drive to the limit... That's why they have multiple lanes.

I have worked on a couple of old Rovers. Simple is not a word that comes to mind. Needlessly complicated is one that comes to mind though.

Are you a mechanic?

For something to be truly simple to fix there needs to be alot of that one thing. Take a small block. Its considered a pretty simple motor but no more simple than a Ford small block. Or a Chrysler motor or for that matter a honda motor.

Most cars now unless you are trained you can't even easily get to the internals of the car from what I see. That's what I mean by not wanting to work on them.

No matter how simple your car is you still need a basic understanding of mechanics to work on something. This is something most poeple in the 30s 40s and 50s had. You know why they had it? Cause stuff broke down all the time. Broke down enough that you needed to be able to fix the simple stuff. One of the reasons that many people don't have the knowledge or choose to work on stuff is its become more reliable, reliable enough that a basic knowledge is no longer required to own a car. In the 30s you had to know how to work on a car if you owned it.

But stuff was more reliable then and meant to last too. Are these vehicles now going to last all that time? Will anyone care if they do? haha

Another question how more old school do you want the drivetrain to be than what came in say a 76 blazer. Want to go back to points?

Also... there are so many types of vehicle now which makes things so complex. Back then you had fewer types of vehicles so it was easier to pass on the knowledge of how to work on them. And they were more simple. That's why I think we would benefit from simplifying and uniting in this way...

Gear driven t cases are about as old school as you get, 3 speed automatics and 4 speed manuals. Honestly no thanks man gimme more speeds any day. I will take the trade off in complication for a more efficient overall vehicle.

Like I aid though.. not everyone is going to want this.

Once again not trying to discourage you, but it sounds like your automotive knowledge is kind of slim. When you are talking production you have to add in things like specialized tools. Consumables, electricity, heat ( if its winter) I mean everything has to be added up and it adds up really really really fast

Yeah.. it is pretty slim.. that's what I want - a type of vehicle you don't have to be a lifetime mechanic to work on it... That's the whole point.

But to do that mechanics have to design it - engineers too.... but design it for the average person NOT mechanics and engineers - the way they are now.

 

[TerryD]

But stuff was more reliable then and meant to last too. Are these vehicles now going to last all that time? Will anyone care if they do? haha

It was simpler, not more reliable. Points burnt up, chemicals damaged things easier because the metallurgy wasn't as good, engines and transmissions didn't last 1/2 as long as they do now. In the 60s and 70s 70000 miles was worn out. My Suburban has 170k miles on all original stuff and my 00 K2500 has 269k on original stuff. Old stuff won't do that...

 

[ZombieBlazer]

It was simpler, not more reliable. Points burnt up, chemicals damaged things easier because the metallurgy wasn't as good, engines and transmissions didn't last 1/2 as long as they do now. In the 60s and 70s 70000 miles was worn out. My Suburban has 170k miles on all original stuff and my 00 K2500 has 269k on original stuff. Old stuff won't do that...

The word I was actually looking for was durable, sorry. Things were built to last then... and from the beginning I have said to add the knowledge we have now so we have the durability AND the simplicity as you say and the reliability..

Don't get me wrong.. I fully realize that by now we have incredible knowledge compared to the past.. the issue is how we use it. Today it's used to make a profit. I wish we could flip that and apply it to the things WE want... Now we have engines that last and are reliable but who wants them? And they look so bad on the interior and exterior you don't even want the thing anymore... and you can't easily work on the interior or exterior.

 

[blazinzuk]

"That's the MAX speed limit.. you don't have to drive to the limit... That's why they have multiple lanes."

There is a common factor in every single 2 car accident. It is speed difference, it is a proven fact the more speed difference you have on a highway the higher the likelihood of fatal accidents are.

This is of course in the US where we give out drivers licenses like candy and all of our traffic enforcement does nothing to improve a persons driving skill.

I think speed limits should be raised significantly. But that is another argument for another day.

"Are you a mechanic?" Not as a trade, completely self taught. I got books I read stuff I did stuff. I learned as I went along. My Mom actually discouraged me to her best ability.

"Most cars now unless you are trained you can't even easily get to the internals of the car from what I see. That's what I mean by not wanting to work on them."

Its actually quite easy and sometimes you actually have to do a little research. Which I find for my non mechanic friends seems to be impossble to even buy a chiltons


Like I said I am not trying to be a jerk here but trying to offer an educated counterpoint. Hopefully so you can hone your idea.

First off just cause something was old DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS RELIABLE. Even own a 50s cars??????

Ever own a car from the 40s????

There is a reason every one knew how to work on cars back then. You had to know or it would cost you an arm and a leg to keep your car running. Valves adjusted, points adjusted plugs and wires that would only last a couple thousand miles, bias ply tires that had blowouts once every year or so. Fluids that needed changed because they simply didn't last as long.

Oil changes that had to be done way more often because of the lack of an oil filter. Radiators that were less efficient so you ran water in the summer instead of antifreeze, then you forget to refill with antifreeze and cracked your block ( freeze plugs don't work).

I am saying the notion of everything old being more reliable and built to last is a romantic notion at best.

Sure things were heavier made of thicker materials. Gas mileage wasn't on the mind of anyone. Materials were cheap easy to make it out of 14 gauge steel instead of 20 gauge.

One of the reasons I reponded to this thread is this idea you have that you have to be a "lifetime mechanic" to work on something modern.

You are so dead wrong and this is the notion that makes cars seem overcomplicated. I see lots of educated people who have never touched their cars fall on hard times and by dang, they get a book and fix stuff. I am talking people who have never touched a wrench in their life.

True not all things could be fixed but not all things on old cars could be fixed, thats why there are, were, and still will be, thousands of mechanics shops around the US

I have found alot to times in building 4x4s that I have to do something that will block access or restrict something that needs to be gotten too. Sometimes that can mean something as simple as pulling the exhaust, or something as complicated as lifting the motor to get at something.

Get out there and rebuild a car, or help someone rebuilding a car. When you look at the big picture of a car you start to hate engineers a whole lot less then when you are looking at how hard it is to get to that one bolt

 

[ZombieBlazer]

There is a common factor in every single 2 car accident. It is speed difference, it is a proven fact the more speed difference you have on a highway the higher the likelihood of fatal accidents are.

I think you are misapplying the point of that statistic... it doesn't matter WHAT the speed limit is you are still going to have people driving at different rates of speed due to different situations. I don't see how you can come to the conclusion based on that that raising the speed limit would make thing safer...

Also, the higher the speed limit the more you increase the difference in rates of speed.. that seems to counter the point of your argument..

This is of course in the US where we give out drivers licenses like candy and all of our traffic enforcement does nothing to improve a persons driving skill.

I think speed limits should be raised significantly. But that is another argument for another day.

Is a high speed vehicle really necessary for a off road vehicle though? This is why I think the comparison to a horse is so important.

"Are you a mechanic?" Not as a trade, completely self taught. I got books I read stuff I did stuff. I learned as I went along. My Mom actually discouraged me to her best ability.

You can be self taught and still be a mechanic.. my dad is self taught but he has worked his whole life on vehicles.. well his dad taught him as well. That is where I get a lot of my philosophy.. listening to him. He would constantly talk about how cars are made to not be worked on now and that trend continues he would say. He did everything you could imagine to cars.. he would get 2 new trucks that were wrecked and make on e pristine vehicle out of it... paint made his own engine puller paint booth.. operated and repaired heavy equipment.. built his own house from the ground up.. my grandfather built his own house too...

But I didn't grow up with him so I didn't get a lot of that knowledge passed down to me.

Its actually quite easy and sometimes you actually have to do a little research. Which I find for my non mechanic friends seems to be impossible to even buy a chiltons

I have bought many Chiltons.. but that was before the internet became so developed.. we haven't even gotten into the price of tools yet... OR a place to work on your vehicle...

Living in a city that's a huge issue... also.. try working on your vehicle and experimenting when you need that vehicle to get to your job... haha

Like I said I am not trying to be a jerk here but trying to offer an educated counterpoint. Hopefully so you can hone your idea.

I think you are missing the point though... not everyone wants to devote their lives to working on cars. It sounded like that was a big passion for you.. and things you don't realize may have fallen in place for you... people always assume something that is easy for them should be easy for others... that's really not the way it works unfortunately.

First off just cause something was old DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS RELIABLE. Even own a 50s cars??????

we have been over this though... I have said all along to modernize them.. but with the philosophy of old cars...

There is a reason every one knew how to work on cars back then. You had to know or it would cost you an arm and a leg to keep your car running. Valves adjusted, points adjusted plugs and wires that would only last a couple thousand miles, bias ply tires that had blowouts once every year or so. Fluids that needed changed because they simply didn't last as long.

But cars WERE built to be worked on back then... that WAS an emphasis.. in VWs it was a huge priority... The way I see it that could still be done today. But for economic reasons it isn't. It benefits the car companies and mechanics to do things the way they are done now..

Oil changes that had to be done way more often because of the lack of an oil filter. Radiators that were less efficient so you ran water in the summer instead of antifreeze, then you forget to refill with antifreeze and cracked your block ( freeze plugs don't work).

I am saying the notion of everything old being more reliable and built to last is a romantic notion at best.

Again.. it's relative... things BETTER have improved after 70 years.. lol But unfortunately most of that improvement has benefited the manufacturers pockets.

Sure things were heavier made of thicker materials. Gas mileage wasn't on the mind of anyone. Materials were cheap easy to make it out of 14 gauge steel instead of 20 gauge.

Which is why we buy old Blazers, right?

One of the reasons I reponded to this thread is this idea you have that you have to be a "lifetime mechanic" to work on something modern.

You are so dead wrong and this is the notion that makes cars seem overcomplicated. I see lots of educated people who have never touched their cars fall on hard times and by dang, they get a book and fix stuff. I am talking people who have never touched a wrench in their life.

Sure... what do you have to lose when you don't have a choice.. the question is why didn't they do it before? If you really think about it you will realize why that is..

I have found alot to times in building 4x4s that I have to do something that will block access or restrict something that needs to be gotten too. Sometimes that can mean something as simple as pulling the exhaust, or something as complicated as lifting the motor to get at something.

I get that.. but usually it's because of form over function.. or because they have t make cars so small and light weight now.. or because they don't care if it costs a ton to get the car worked on.. because cars aren't really designed to be worked on... they are disposable.

Get out there and rebuild a car, or help someone rebuilding a car. When you look at the big picture of a car you start to hate engineers a whole lot less then when you are looking at how hard it is to get to that one bolt

Like I said... not everyone wants to devote their lives to being a mechanic... my plate is full enough with other things. My skills lie more in the design realm.. which is why I have the interest I do in this aspect.

My take is to have people focus on their strength and that way we all don't have to replicate the same work and struggle for that knowledge.. it's not efficient on the whole...

I never said I couldn't become a mechanic.. I just want to learn how to be able to fix MY vehicle.. not everyone's vehicle.

I can design my own vehicle... my feeling is the more people we have working on it the better it could be... 2 (or more) heads are better than one..

 

[ZombieBlazer]

I am going to try to distill the point of what I want to do and why... just because many people seem to not really understand what I am saying which is my fault. Sometimes I assume people know what i am thinking... like it should be obvious to everyone.

1- Vehicles now days are designed to suit the manufacturer... not the person who works on their own vehicle or wants to modify their own vehicle.

2- I want to see a vehicle designed that is designed for people like us... people who want to work on and modify our own vehicles...



Whether the old VW engineers realized it or not they made vehicles that fit number 2...

Am I saying to make a car exactly like a VW.. like it was made entirely in that era? No..

In some way yes... but in some ways the new design elements would be maintained... it just depends when it is best for us... rather than what's best for the manufacturers.

Also.. a point that was missed.. someone said that old Landrover defenders were complex.. but the key is, like the VW engineers, they were TRYING to make things simple that could be worked on... maybe they failed where the VW engineers succeeded... but the goal was the same - to make vehicles that could be worked on by the average person and that were simple and durable and in attempt to make something that would last.

It seems the opposite now.. now the engineers have the ability to make things to last mechanically.. but yet they make vehicles that are meant to be disposable..

Maybe they are meant to be handed down... not kept...

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Maybe the best way to go about this would be to try to find all the different things people would want (that are compatible) in a purpose built open source 4x4...

Try to put them all together in one vehicle and see what comes out...

 

[TerryD]

Ok, the very first question is what purpose?

Daily use with mild wheeling and camping is what you have said. Ok.
Before anything else, for me and a few others on here, how many will it seat comfortably? I need at least 5 seats in something full-size. Case in point, we all just barely fit my K5. We don't do anything buy joyride in it and rarely because of the right fit. The Suburban pulls down trip duty. Because of that need, anything in the CJ, Rover, FJ, and EB class is out and I wouldn't buy anything K5 sized for that purpose. Can't pack everyone in and carry enough gear for an evening in those, let alone a weekend. I had a nice XJ that I sold to get my crew cab because we couldn't all fit.

What you need to do is stop asking us what WE want, because we are not the market for this purpose built 4x4. We may be good for suggestions on which pieces make the most sense to use, but it'd wager less than half of us buy a new vehicle for ourselves. I never would. We buy, build and drive everyone else's thrown away cars because it is what we do and in the price range we feel comfortable with.

Probably 2/3 to 3/4 of those not in that group buy small, economy cars that get 30+ mpg and have long commutes. That leaves you with around 5/6 to 1/8 of the people on here who would consider buying something like you want to create and can provide valuable input as to what a consumer would be interested in.

I'm not discouraging you in any way or trying to tell you it wouldn't work, I'm just saying you are going to get alot of "less than helpful" comments on here because you're not asking the right crowd. Plus, everyone will tell you a little something different.

If YOU want an old Rover, go get one and start building your rig! We will then all ooooh and ahhhh over its unique coolness and maybe seem a little warmer.

Hope this was helpful in understanding why we seem to be having issues with what your intentions are.

 

[TerryD]

Oh yeah, I saw a quote attributed to Henry Ford that fits here too: "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Build what you want and if people like it and can afford it, it will sell.

 

[blazinzuk]

"I think you are misapplying the point of that statistic... it doesn't matter WHAT the speed limit is you are still going to have people driving at different rates of speed due to different situations. I don't see how you can come to the conclusion based on that that raising the speed limit would make thing safer...

Also, the higher the speed limit the more you increase the difference in rates of speed.. that seems to counter the point of your argument.."

Your making the assumption that traffic can and will travel at different speeds because it always has. I am making the assumption that all traffic should travel at the same speed. Its really not hard to do.

Lemme just say a couple of things.

You say design is your strong point. Well a car designed by a designer with very little practical mechnical knowledge will be a terrible car ( not a dig at you at all sorry if it came off like that)

Just like a car designed by a mechanic would probably be terrible to look at.

One of the points I am trying to make is you are making assumptions based on your own ideas.

I have friends who love working on newer cars ( talking 2010 or newer) why? According to them they are so simple to work on. Plug in your laptop it tells you whats up. Fix it. Simple as that.

For not a ton of money you can get an extra 100 hp out of an engine and make it better no fuel.

Aftermarket modifications are something OEM guys don't care about at all. If there is money to be made selling some of the stuff then they will but no OEM ever said, will this make it easy for some Joe Schmo to modify?

I actually in principle agree with what most of what you say. But in the practical world alot of it just doesn't add up.

If you were to open source a 4x4 and the main contributors were hard core rockcrawlers and rock bouncers, well it would be way way different than if the main contributors were expedition wheelers.

That is actually the main reason I see an open source type of vehicle just not being able to work on a less expensive rig. Too many different wants.

Everyone wants a truck that can pull, go anywhere, get 30 mpg, is cheap, easy to work on etc. But its just not a reality.

Even on an open source type of thing you have specific things that specific people want, that others simply don't want.

Kind of the beauty of the aftermarket.

I want you to go and find some history books on the design of cars in the 50s. I will see if I can find some titles for you.

I have read alot about the history of the car. Easy to work on had to be back in the day because the vehicles broke down alot.

Newer vehicles don't have to easy to work on because they really don't break down very much.

The designers has the same philosophy back then as now. You are feeding a bit too much into the every corporation is evil and controlling us mindset.

"Sure... what do you have to lose when you don't have a choice.. the question is why didn't they do it before? If you really think about it you will realize why that is.."

I have to address this statement. I don't think someone who has never worked on cars would work on their car just cause it was easy to do so. The vast majority of people out there work on their cars out of necessity.

Shoot I work on cars out of necessity.

Society as a whole needs a huge paradigm shift to self reliance. We simply are not a self reliant people anymore.

Like I said I really really like the principle of what your saying.

I think the best thing for you to do from a design standpoint is start looking way outside the automotive world. Look at other technology see how they can apply to what you want to do.

The answer to your question of how to do this is not in the automotive realm. It could be if you want it to cost a 100k but for something cheap that is also reliable, and durable, your gonna want to look around and incorporate new ideas into this.

 

[blazinzuk]

You guys know that of the old rovers built that 9 out of 10 of them are still on the road?


The other one made it home

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Ok, the very first question is what purpose?

Daily use with mild wheeling and camping is what you have said. Ok.
Before anything else, for me and a few others on here, how many will it seat comfortably? I need at least 5 seats in something full-size. Case in point, we all just barely fit my K5. We don't do anything buy joyride in it and rarely because of the right fit. The Suburban pulls down trip duty. Because of that need, anything in the CJ, Rover, FJ, and EB class is out and I wouldn't buy anything K5 sized for that purpose. Can't pack everyone in and carry enough gear for an evening in those, let alone a weekend. I had a nice XJ that I sold to get my crew cab because we couldn't all fit.

But I think it would be possible to make a purpose built vehicle like I imagine but that could be expanded to different sizes.... everything would be the same except the dimensions... You could up grade the engine too. This kind of thing is doable IMO..

What you need to do is stop asking us what WE want, because we are not the market for this purpose built 4x4. We may be good for suggestions on which pieces make the most sense to use, but it'd wager less than half of us buy a new vehicle for ourselves. I never would. We buy, build and drive everyone else's thrown away cars because it is what we do and in the price range we feel comfortable with.

Think about this though... how many people from each camp of vehicles might be interested in what I propose? I think there are many. But as I said.. if his isn't for you then then why bother commenting? But we don't know if we don't ask... that's the key...

Probably 2/3 to 3/4 of those not in that group buy small, economy cars that get 30+ mpg and have long commutes. That leaves you with around 5/6 to 1/8 of the people on here who would consider buying something like you want to create and can provide valuable input as to what a consumer would be interested in.

I don't know.. SUVs are very popular. I think people buy what they can afford. Have something big that people can afford....

I'm not discouraging you in any way or trying to tell you it wouldn't work, I'm just saying you are going to get alot of "less than helpful" comments on here because you're not asking the right crowd. Plus, everyone will tell you a little something different.

But what I want to build is a Blazer.. just with a simpler body. I use examples like VWs and Landrovers because they have some key elements I like.. but at the heart of it all is a Blazer.. just a slightly modified drivetrain. More towards the attributes of a large Willy's or that old landrover.. geared low with a high toque engine.

If YOU want an old Rover, go get one and start building your rig! We will then all ooooh and ahhhh over its unique coolness and maybe seem a little warmer.

That's big money or I have to move to England.. haha and plenty of headaches.. and still not really what I want.

Hope this was helpful in understanding why we seem to be having issues with what your intentions are.

I hear what you are saying.. but again.. you don't know until you ask. And remember... it takes time. not everyone is going to see this in a couple days. Other people may come along who might be interested.. or maybe not. we will see.

I have some ideas up my sleeve how I cnan show people what i want more and experiment but it will take a little time.

 

[ZombieBlazer]

Oh yeah, I saw a quote attributed to Henry Ford that fits here too: "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Build what you want and if people like it and can afford it, it will sell.

That is exactly what I have been thinking in my mind but not in those words... sometimes people don't really realize what they want.. that is why I feel we have been bamboozled.. the car companies made us want what they want. We have been caught up in it and lost sight of what we COULD have..