Ok, enough in that direction. Points are made and responded... How about we move on so I don't have to lock this thread, shall we?
CK5
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Aircraft Crawler !
- Thread starter TLCOR
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DavidB
1/2 ton status
BadDog said:
I was wondering when you were gonna show up.
atho - I used to have a license to operate one of those tugs, but I can't remember the designation for it. Might have started with "A/S", but I can't be sure.
The axles look, and probably are, pretty heavy. But the largest amount of weight on them comes fron the front and rear bumpers. They're 1 1/2" to 2" thick steel plate. The front bumper is bigger and thicker than the rear, to keep the front end down when pulling a load.
There is a "subframe" under the standard frame; I think it was 2x4" tube with a couple big crossmembers to support the transfer case (looked like a big Rockwell, divorce-mounted) and axle pivots. Speaking of axle pivots... don't marry yourself to this feature. The front axle has stops on the frame, that are only about an inch above the axletube on each side. The rear is a little different - there's big rubber bumpstops on the frame that normally sit directly on the axletubes. They are mounted on an L-shaped hinge of sorts that allows them to be flipped out of the way, but there's a set of steel stops on the other leg of the L. Again, there's about an inch of clearance between the steel stops and the axletubes.
IIRC, the steering cylinders are an integral part of the axlehousings (as Russ stated he believes, too).
The one we had at Willow Grove had been there since around '85 or so, and was in great shape. Aircraft taxiways and parking areas are generally pretty smooth, and they don't go very fast, so even with only sidewall flex for suspension the cab got very little stress. The most-stressed part of the cab is probably the door hinge area; I watched many a fat USAF airman levering himself into the cab using the door. There's no salt or other chemicals used on US flightlines (runways are a different story), and they're painted with CARC, so there's little-to-no corrosion problems.
If you can get one cheap, ther's plenty of parts (and steel!) that could be used to build-up another rig. But I don't see making a crawler out of that vehicle itself. That's my informed opinion; take it as you see fit.
TLCOR said:
The axles look, and probably are, pretty heavy. But the largest amount of weight on them comes fron the front and rear bumpers. They're 1 1/2" to 2" thick steel plate. The front bumper is bigger and thicker than the rear, to keep the front end down when pulling a load.
There is a "subframe" under the standard frame; I think it was 2x4" tube with a couple big crossmembers to support the transfer case (looked like a big Rockwell, divorce-mounted) and axle pivots. Speaking of axle pivots... don't marry yourself to this feature. The front axle has stops on the frame, that are only about an inch above the axletube on each side. The rear is a little different - there's big rubber bumpstops on the frame that normally sit directly on the axletubes. They are mounted on an L-shaped hinge of sorts that allows them to be flipped out of the way, but there's a set of steel stops on the other leg of the L. Again, there's about an inch of clearance between the steel stops and the axletubes.
IIRC, the steering cylinders are an integral part of the axlehousings (as Russ stated he believes, too).
The one we had at Willow Grove had been there since around '85 or so, and was in great shape. Aircraft taxiways and parking areas are generally pretty smooth, and they don't go very fast, so even with only sidewall flex for suspension the cab got very little stress. The most-stressed part of the cab is probably the door hinge area; I watched many a fat USAF airman levering himself into the cab using the door. There's no salt or other chemicals used on US flightlines (runways are a different story), and they're painted with CARC, so there's little-to-no corrosion problems.
If you can get one cheap, ther's plenty of parts (and steel!) that could be used to build-up another rig. But I don't see making a crawler out of that vehicle itself. That's my informed opinion; take it as you see fit.
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Methinks that front bumper would make a SWEET fab table... Hmmm, wonder if I could get one and part it out while keeping the front bumper, axles and hydraulics. And my son wants a 6.2 for fuel mileage concerns Should be able to move the sheet metal easily enough. Sell the rest of the steel for scrap. 
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zero cool
1/2 ton status
As far as gear ratios go, that 18:1 would make for a good crawler using otherwise stock drivetrain pieces.
If you went with that 18:1, stock NP241 and 700R4, you're looking at almost 150:1 in first gear, low range.
I've seen guys run that same 700R4 but with a Klune V (2.73:1), Atlas (4.3:1) and 4.56 gears to get around a 165:1 crawl ratio. And that's a pretty good place to be doing the techincal crawling on the extreme rock trails.
So if you were looking to *only* crawl, that ratio wouldn't kill you. But if you wanted to do anything else, it would be like driving around stuck in low range.
It would be interesting as a novelty. Might even get you in a magazine. But I wouldn't throw money into one myself.
If you went with that 18:1, stock NP241 and 700R4, you're looking at almost 150:1 in first gear, low range.
I've seen guys run that same 700R4 but with a Klune V (2.73:1), Atlas (4.3:1) and 4.56 gears to get around a 165:1 crawl ratio. And that's a pretty good place to be doing the techincal crawling on the extreme rock trails.
So if you were looking to *only* crawl, that ratio wouldn't kill you. But if you wanted to do anything else, it would be like driving around stuck in low range.
It would be interesting as a novelty. Might even get you in a magazine. But I wouldn't throw money into one myself.
Problem is, even for "crawlers", you frequently need some wheel speed. Not to mention getting from obstacle to obstacle or parking area to trail head sometimes requires a fair bit of driving. Assuming typical setup, with 42" tires, and running at 5000 rpm you would be going around 35 mph. On the local trails, getting to an old standby like Predator requires driving something like 5 or 6 miles just to get to the trail. That would take something around 9 minutes at a sustained 5000 rpms for the engine and drive lines. Might be a little rough on the drive train…
zero cool
1/2 ton status
Well, with a set of 53" tires, a 700R4/241 combo driving those axles:
first gear, low range, idle: just under 1 mph.
first gear, low range, 5K RPM: about 5 MPH.
first gear, high range, idle: just over 2 MPH (which is around what a stock first gear/low range 4x4 runs)
overdrive, high range, idle: 9 MPH
overdrive, high range, 5K RPM: 63 MPH
Looks like you can get *some* wheel speed if you have it in high range. Not a whole lot but some.
At 3K RPMs in high range/overdrive you can push just over 35 MPH. You could get around without completely killing the drivetrain. Like I say, it would be interesting as a novelty. If I had a lot of money to throw away, I might do it just to get my ugly mug into a magazine.
first gear, low range, idle: just under 1 mph.
first gear, low range, 5K RPM: about 5 MPH.
first gear, high range, idle: just over 2 MPH (which is around what a stock first gear/low range 4x4 runs)
overdrive, high range, idle: 9 MPH
overdrive, high range, 5K RPM: 63 MPH
Looks like you can get *some* wheel speed if you have it in high range. Not a whole lot but some.
At 3K RPMs in high range/overdrive you can push just over 35 MPH. You could get around without completely killing the drivetrain. Like I say, it would be interesting as a novelty. If I had a lot of money to throw away, I might do it just to get my ugly mug into a magazine.
But dealing with 53" tires, you're pretty much talking about Michelins, and as I mentioned before, I don't know of anyone who has tried to run them on a crawler that is really happy with them (or the 48s for that matter). There is definitely a point where it is just "too big" and they are VERY heavy and stiff, even with the sidewalls grooved. Maybe with 49" IROKs, but those are really too wide for rocks. Still, if you were determined to run tires like that, I guess these would be the axles to run them on. Not something that would work well around here though...
sled_dog
1 ton status
Don't ever put your hopes on running a 700R4 under load and big power in 4th gear.
Take one apart then tell me you think that clutch setup will really take the abuse.
NV4500 would be the best option. Like Russ said, even crawlers want speed sometimes. WIth a Klune and Atlas, you can still put them both in 1:1 and crank out the power. My S10 is a going to be a trail rig/crawler and I have a nice healthy 383 going in it with 5.13 gears and a TH350 for the close ratio compared to a SM465. Speed is a factor in my mind, but I live in Muddy PA.
Take one apart then tell me you think that clutch setup will really take the abuse.
NV4500 would be the best option. Like Russ said, even crawlers want speed sometimes. WIth a Klune and Atlas, you can still put them both in 1:1 and crank out the power. My S10 is a going to be a trail rig/crawler and I have a nice healthy 383 going in it with 5.13 gears and a TH350 for the close ratio compared to a SM465. Speed is a factor in my mind, but I live in Muddy PA.
zero cool
1/2 ton status
sled_dog said:
The 700R4/4L60 has to have one of the biggest aftermarkets out there for upgrade parts. I've seen those trannys, properly built, handle plenty of big block power running some pretty serious rigs.
That being said, I'll keep the SM465 in my buggy.
zero cool
1/2 ton status
BadDog said:
Again, that's why I suggest it would be workable as a novelty.
I wouldn't do it unless I had a lot of money to throw away and wanted to do something different to get in a magazine. And I certainly wouldn't do it as a primary wheeling rig.
Sorry, missed the part about "novelty"...
ksblaze83
1/2 ton status
I'm not 100% sure what the designation is on those, but i know the smaller version of the tugs are the A/S32A-42. Those are what we use to tow around the hornets with. I'll have to ask the guys at work what the designation is for the HUGE tugs!
sled_dog
1 ton status
zero cool said:The 700R4/4L60 has to have one of the biggest aftermarkets out there for upgrade parts. I've seen those trannys, properly built, handle plenty of big block power running some pretty serious rigs.
That being said, I'll keep the SM465 in my buggy.
I understand, they can be really tough and built transmissions, but I doubt there is anything to beef up overdrive enough to handle the power.
DavidB
1/2 ton status
For OD I'd use the NV5600 or the Duece OD manual. and R4 can be built but the OD is still little. Even 4500s have trouble with OD sometimes. OD is for light crusiing...that's why they say you ain't spoda tow wit it.
Brocky
1/2 ton status
Just a little foreshadowing, but them axles look real heavy and imagine climbing rocks and one of them wheels drop into a hole. Would it flip the truck in the direction of the hole? Would you be able to put springs on there to hold it together and still flex? I think it would and could be a interesting machine, but not a rock crawler. Weight of them axles is the biggest problem.
Id make a monster truck out of it with Monster Truck/Terragator sized tires, there is enough flex in the tires to do without suspension, no 3 wheeled terragator has any suspension what so ever.
as far as gearing, I dont know what kind of speed you would get, and you would need a High RPM motor for sure that would be built to stand it.
It would be different though thats for sure, just something about havin a one of a kind, in a very true way, lots of K5s on big tires, with sawzalled fenders and tubing all over, very few of these
as far as gearing, I dont know what kind of speed you would get, and you would need a High RPM motor for sure that would be built to stand it.
It would be different though thats for sure, just something about havin a one of a kind, in a very true way, lots of K5s on big tires, with sawzalled fenders and tubing all over, very few of these
DavidB
1/2 ton status
Drey said:
yah....
TLCOR
1/2 ton status
Brocky said:
Actually, not. Look how many people having success with heavy UMGs, RockWells etc., I dont think they weight much more than a 2.5T RW, either.
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darenofears
Registered Member
if somone really tried it would be nice to see the outcome
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