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Beefing up the fuse panel...

Dyeager: the loss occurs mostly AFTER the ignition switch, and only when loaded. Everything post ignition switch is powered by one 12awg wire that feeds all switched circuits. There is no discernible resistance in the wire, or continuity to ground. The 12awg 12v lead from the alt to the fuse panel (dome lights, ECM) reads great.

Irish: I have the exciter wire hooked up with a resistor. Can't remember which terminal it is, but the plug only has one wire
 
You know, I work on so many different things, I often see things in one area that would be useful in another but is unheard of there.

Protecting fuses and circuitry from the environment is a big part of the electronics and electrical business, and there is lots of stuff out there to do it.

For instance there is the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, or NEMA.

Among other things, they rate electrical enclosures. They use a number system that is not all that logical.
In other words, the bigger the number, not the tougher the box. There are lots of places that explain the system.
But here is the horse's mouth so to speak.
http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/nema-enclosure-types.pdf

However, if you want a tough box that will keep things dry and safe under the hood, do a search for NEMA4 or 4X boxes.
There are thousands of different types, shapes and sizes out there. The "X" means noncorrosive, and more costly.
In other words, fiberglass, special plastic, or stainless steel.

None of the boxes are all that cheap, but they will get the job done, and are off the shelf items.
Many even have clear lids or windows so you can see problems without opening the door.
If you put a little extra money in the box, then the fuse panels do not have to be special since they will never see water.

If you want to do a redesign of the system to improve it, consider DIN rail.

I'm not going to tell what that means, its German, and I don't remember it right off hand.
But, its a standardized mounting system that bolts to a plate inside a NEMA box, and then about anything you can imagine snaps to it.
Fuse holders, circuit breakers, relays, timers, all kinds of stuff.

Lots of places that sell that stuff too.
As for getting the wires in and out, there are bulkhead fittings that are waterproof where they go in the box, and have O rings or seals that squeeze down on the wire when a nut is tightened to make it waterproof also.

I would not try any of this for a simple minor repair or slight redesign, but if you were redoing a setup from scratch, its something to think about.
Although the box might be an idea by its self.

I had to design and build some control boxes for a company a year or so ago. Used NEMA4X because it was going to be in a dirty environment.
One box basically just had two timers and a circuit breaker mounted on DIN rail.

That pic lets you see the rail setup.
The second one, got more complicated.

The wires you see going off to the side went to two switches mounted in the door, and the grey blocks with the orange pieces are terminal blocks. In their simplist form, they have screw connectors on each side that you use to hook up wires.
Those type just pass the power through from one side to the other.

The orange pieces jumper the blocks together so that they share the same circuit if desired.
The terminal blocks get very complicated if you want with multiple circuits.

They also sell terminal blocks with swing-out fuse holders that break the circuit when you swing out the arm with the fuse in it.
Plus, you can get them with an LED that lights up when the fuse is blown if there is still a load on the circuit.

Here are a couple of pics showing what the box looks like inside with DIN rail.
Since your system would not need the depth I needed for the timers, your box would be a lot different and smaller.

IMG_4371.JPG

IMG_4411.JPG
 
Have you inspected the ignition switch? You can disassemble them.

I pulled an old one apart and the contacts were visibly damaged. Burnt, covered in junk, etc. I wouldn't be surprised that some could have weak contact springs, etc.
 
Dyeager: the loss occurs mostly AFTER the ignition switch, and only when loaded. Everything post ignition switch is powered by one 12awg wire that feeds all switched circuits. There is no discernible resistance in the wire, or continuity to ground. The 12awg 12v lead from the alt to the fuse panel (dome lights, ECM) reads great.

Irish: I have the exciter wire hooked up with a resistor. Can't remember which terminal it is, but the plug only has one wire

That's good. "S" wire is redundant with stock CS144 as they are self sensing.
Just looked at what you did and I think what may be causing your problem is the resistor you put on the exciter wire.
Your truck came with a volt gauge which means the resistor is already there. The brown wire is the resistor.
If you think about it, how was the CS130 was able to work without the resistor you just put in? Going from CS130 to CS144, no resistor needs to be added.
Too much resistance on the brown wire and the regulator will not put full voltage. Also, the gauge not being there anymore has no effect on the alternator working or not.
Resistors are needed for some older 10si/12si to CS swaps.

Could be some of your junkyard wires might be too old and causing your drops. Check the resistance across the large wires you just added.

Finally, check the pulley size.
A work van won't need nearly the same output at idle as a full load Suburban or Tahoe. Might be just spinning too slow.
Mine spins at 2300 in park @ 750rpm but in gear that drops to 2000 @ 550. Keep in mind these don't put out huge numbers at idle. 60-70 amps hot. WAY better than CS130 by nearly double but still not 100 amps. I have yet to check my amp output on this one. Somebody borrowed my Fluke clamp on meter and I can't remember who. :doah: Getting old sucks.

If you still can't get it right where you want it, call these guys:
http://www.qualitypowerauto.com
They are just in Yucaipa, CA
(909) 794-1600 Talk to Ron. Super guys and they won't try to sell you a thing.
They do sell the conversion plugs just in case...
http://www.qualitypowerauto.com/catalog.php?item=81
 
Pretty sure the CS130 uses a charge indicator light. I know the '90/91 clusters I have, have the light. That's with voltmeter of course.

Not arguing, as I have no idea how the bulb was wired, just noticed it was there, and assumed that was part of it's purpose.
 
Pretty sure the CS130 uses a charge indicator light. I know the '90/91 clusters I have, have the light. That's with voltmeter of course.

Not arguing, as I have no idea how the bulb was wired, just noticed it was there, and assumed that was part of it's purpose.

No argument as that's not the case. Even the OPs Sub has one wire, no light but did have a gauge and had CS130.
My 89 has volt gauge & no charge light as did my '90 Suburban both 4x4 and both with CS130. The spot where charge light would be, lower left circle in gauge panel, is/was just a solid black part of gauge cover.

However I have found trucks with gauges missing but with CS plugs and 2 wires instead of one.
A bright red flash will get your attention quicker than a sweeping gauge I guess but I don't have an explanation why both would be there.
Are they truly wired in or just there?
Where would charge light be if it had the clock and was a 4x4? No place to put it...
4wd, SES, Brake, Seatbelt take up the spots below the speedo/fuel gauge.
Might even boil down to towing package vs full gauge package? Got me...
 
I have a year specific wiring diagram, and I have no charge light. The wire to the alternator is 12v switched (according to diagrams and my dmm). I think the cs130 has a resistor built in to it. My volt gauge is removed, but it has nothing to do with the exciter wire. Also, my truck charges great under the hood...13.6-13.8 or so fully loaded at idle. A long time ago, I had a short inside (my own fault) and the wire through the ignition got HOT. I bet my switch is iffy now (like mentioned)
 
Are they truly wired in or just there?
Where would charge light be if it had the clock and was a 4x4?
Might even boil down to towing package vs full gauge package? Got me...

I'll have to look at the '91 R/V wiring diagram. No clock can be installed in the '90/91's, so that's not a factor.

Neither of my clusters are from my own trucks, I got them other places, so it very well could be they are set up for the light from the factory for charge light, but not used in all apps. In any case, the lens has the battery indicator in it, and the hole for the bulb, so I know it COULD have been run. Buddy has a '90 or '91 'burb, I'll have him check if I think about it.

It is odd that you hear so much about needing resistors for these alternators, if they aren't needed. MOST all write-ups mention requiring them, but there are enough people that run the CS-series without any sort of resistor and have no problems that it makes one wonder.
 
Like I said, the cs130 schematic for my rig shows a resistor where the S port is. The cs144 doesn't have it. People seem to say it will eventually kill the alternator if there is no resistor.
 
For about 2500 miles now and some good offroading, my CS130 has been resistor-less. I just wired up the exciter wire, power wire to rear post, and battery lead. I have dual batteries and dual gauges. That's all I know :D
 
Well I had some success. Not as much as I hoped, but good nonetheless. I resoldered a few wires at my underhood fuse box since I got myself a nice Weller WESD51 solder station! Makes soldering more fun...I also learned that if you wrap a strand of copper around the solder joint it keeps things a little neater and tighter.





The above pic is the 10 awg wire I ran from the underhood fuse box to the 12v lead that feeds the ignition switch. I took the 12 awg wire that WAS feeding it and attached it to the fuse panel buss that feeds the hazards and the "power" leads above the breaker that protects them. As you can see, I jacked the connector a little, but my next tries were better.



I ran another 10 awg wire to feed the two relays that supply my 12v pink ignition switch circuits and 12v switched orange circuits (namely PW and A/C). The way it is now, is the ignition switched wire from the key switch only runs the coil and a little soldered wire to trigger the relay too, which now powers the fuse panel. Here is a pic of the extra wire to the orange wire buss that runs the PW and A/C. The little wire triggers the relay that is fed from the second 10 awg wire. (edit: had issue with "orange wire" relay staying energized, see below).



Here are the relays dangling. They tucked nice and snug behind the top of the carpet. I plan to find some "continuous duty" relays so I don't burn these up.



The results are: I now get a steady 13.3 volts inside the cab when everything is on (while cruising). That's about 0.5v difference. At idle, it is still weak at 12.2-12.5 volts all warmed up. My motor is idling at 600 rpm. At 1150 rpm it's back to 13.3v loaded, but if I kill the lights, it will be 13.3v at 700 rpm. With just the front A/C full blast it is at 13.3v at 600 rpm. The cs144 pulley is the same size as my original, but these numbers tell me that my voltages will be more steady if I had a smaller pulley (since the alternator CAN run all accessories with the proper speed). I noticed that while the cab voltage isn't much higher, the accessories respond better when I rev the engine, telling me that they are using the current when it is made available to them. I only measured the underhood volts while it was warming up, and they were at 14-14.2 loaded at idle, but I bet they dropped a little when it all got warm. I will need to check them again after driving it some more. The burb seems to run better, but that is likely in my head. Overall I call it a success. One day I will redo all the wiring I patched with SXL wire and not old amp wires :rolleyes: but until then I am honing my solder skills and seeing what works and what doesn't.
 
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Nice write up!

I made some progress on my electrical today. I was crimping wires into relay sockets similar to the factory terminals. Even after crimping, the wire isn't as tight as I would like. I put a little dab of solder at the end of the wire to connect it to the terminal. I used this method when I put the remote start alarm in my K5 and it has held up well. I'm guessing there is probably a dedicated crimping tool for these small non insulated connectors. I have heard that soldering sometimes isn't a good idea-it may have been Ryoken that talked about it. It beats the wire having a bad connection for me.

I am going to bypass the firewall bulkhead connector to run the crank wire to my starter. I just don't trust that 34 year old connector. I may bypass the battery feeds as well if I find a voltage drop. The connector has some kind of black tar substance in it. Maybe it was to seal it from water. The wires are a bit brittle on the engine side of the firewall as well. Other than that, the factory wiring is good. In my case, a new painless harness would have been overkill. After spending more time studying the factory wiring and a wiring map I have, I feel confident in making repairs where needed and bypassing any bad connections in the bulkhead connector.
 
There is nothing wrong with soldering wire connections on trucks. Its frowned upon on boats due to the higher vibrations.
The solder will hold just fine under the vibrations, but with the solder wicked up the wire a little, you get a stress riser where the flexible wire meets the nonflexible solder, and with time the wire can break.

One thing to watch out for when replacing main power wires with larger wires, is that some of the wires are actually fuse links.
Modern trucks have honking big fuses in the box, but up until a few years ago, they just used a piece of smaller size wire with flame-proof insulation as a fuse.

The smaller wire would get hot and melt when a short occurred. Since it was using insulation that was not supposed to burn, and was placed in a location where the heat would not cause problems, it worked.

I used to know the recommended size difference, but I've had a long day. I think it was two numbers, but not sure.
For instance, a circuit that needed 10 gauge wire, would have a short piece of 12 gauge as a fuse.

Nowadays, the way to do it would be to run heavier wire all the way with an inline fuse close to the battery.
 
Thanks fordum. I swapped a few links for maxi fuses, but the ones off my junction have fusible links still since the maxi feeding it is too large to protect the smaller wires down the line. I am a little fresh on the topic, so I have read that the fusible links should be numerically 4 larger, meaning a 10awg wire should have a 14awg link, which would be 2 sizes smaller (that must be the two you were recalling).

CGT80, thanks! And keep us updated on progress. I think ryoken is a marine guy, so what he may have said about soldering fits with what fordum said.
 
Having curious issues with one of the relays staying energized (also found a simple workaround). See here:

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3336233#post3336233

Also made a couple edits above:
The orange wire has the same ignition switch power as the pink (not a "not while cranking" wire).
Minor edit: the previous 12v ignition supply wire now feeds the hazards/ "power" circuits (provided after a 30a breaker), not the radio, that's a different circuit.
 
Thanks fordum. I swapped a few links for maxi fuses, but the ones off my junction have fusible links still since the maxi feeding it is too large to protect the smaller wires down the line. I am a little fresh on the topic, so I have read that the fusible links should be numerically 4 larger, meaning a 10awg wire should have a 14awg link, which would be 2 sizes smaller (that must be the two you were recalling).

CGT80, thanks! And keep us updated on progress. I think ryoken is a marine guy, so what he may have said about soldering fits with what fordum said.

I recall reading two wire sizes or 4 numbers smaller for fusible links as well. I replaced mine and recall using 14 and 16 fusible link. Fuses are a good idea, but I wonder if they work the same as fusible link. Do they take the same amount of time and current to blow? The whole marine thing makes sense.

I will update my build thread when I get my electrical done, and I will try post here as well. Right now I have a good chunk of my wiring into my new electrical box, but I have a few pesky wires that I have to trace so I can figure out where to hook them up. Of course I have multiple sets of red wire to my fuse panel. If only I could afford to run as many colors as the factory. I have my fingers crossed that this project will take care of the bad connections I had. I started to draw out a map for the electrical box, on a notepad. I want to make something on the computer to go on the bottom side of the cover, when I am done. Then, in the future, I will at least have a quick way to see which wires go where.
 
Fuse technology is complicated. The only way to tell which would blow first, would be to find out how the fuses are rated.

If you think about it, it would be impossible to build a fuse that would last forever at, say 20 amps, but blow instantly at 20.1 amps.
Instead, they are rated at how long it takes them to blow at certain percentage overloads.
And some of the ratings would surprise you.

For instance, this is an actual rating for a certain type fuse.

%of amp rating / Time to Blow Fuse

110% ...............4 hours minimum
135% .............. 1 hour maximum
200% ...............5 minutes maximum
You can buy fuses in styles such as Electronic, ultra fast blow, fast blow, standard, slow blow, and time delay.

They also make fuses called "current limiting". You would think that all fuses were current limiting, but there is a special class called that.

Basically, in this application, the main criteria is that they don't blow unnecessary, if low voltage causes a brief overcurrent, and they blow before the wiring they are protecting melts or bursts into flame.

To be honest, if I were rewiring a truck from scratch, I would be tempted to use compensated circuit breakers for most of the circuits.

They cost more, but if you have a temporary short, you don't have to hunt a replacement fuse.
Like when you hit a bump on the highway, and a dime falls into your cigar lighter socket and leaves you without cruise control all the rest of the way home.

Taught me to keep the change level in my ashtray down........
 
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Like when you hit a bump on the highway, and a dime falls into your cigar lighter socket and leaves you without cruise control all the rest of the way home.

:yikes::rotfl:

Are the compensated fuses the ones that are the same size as a throw away fuse and have the metal housing? I have used those in place of a standard ATC (think that is the type-same as my factory fuse block). They reset when you turn off the power to them.

The only problem is that the easiest way to turn off the power is to pull them. Well, when you are used to plastic fuses that just burn up and cool off it can cause trouble such as burned fingers:angry1: :sign26:

Nooowwwwww, it makes sense. Too much current gets the breaker hot and causes it to trip. If it resets and the short is still there, it gets hot again. Or at least that is what I gathered, after the fact.

I am used to residential and some commercial wiring where the breakers are plastic and they don't get that hot.

That was a great explanation on the fuses. I have dealt with slow blow for AC units and I knew that a breaker or fuse would handle more than rated for a certain period of time, but not how much or how long.

I setup all my extra circuits with plastic fuses today. Now I am wondering if I chose the right sizes, after looking at how long it could potentially take for a fuse to blow.

Hey Fordum, do you have any links or charts for choosing the proper size fuses for our trucks?

Thanks
 
No, compensated means something different. Plus, I made a mistake with the circuit breakers.
Forgot I was dealing with automotive stuff.........

The breakers you are thinking of are the self-resetting type that plug in where the fuses do.
And, just like you said, they heat up and a little bi-metal strip moves and breaks the circuit.
Then when it cools off it resets.

They use them in critical places like headlights and windshield wipers. But those are not the type I was talking about.
They have their place, but I would not want them in all my circuits.

I was saying I would replace my fuses in a complete rewire with non resetting breakers.
Smaller versions of what you have in your house.
You can get them for 12 volt setups. When they see an overload, they trip out and break the circuit.
Then, you can either flip the lever back, or press the reset button depending on which type it is.
I like the lever type, because they can be used as a switch to kill the circuit. Plus its easy to see which ones are tripped.

But, they take up a lot more space than fuses, and so cannot be a direct replacement in a fuse box.
Thus the complete rewire idea.

The place you see a lot of them is in boats. But they really cost when you add the word "marine", so I would probably buy the breakers and build the panel.

Here is an idea of what is possible. Severe overkill for our use though.........

But nice.

http://www.overtons.com/modperl/pro...Circuit-Breaker-Panel-w/Analog-Meters&i=85346

Gotta head to work, post more later...
 

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