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Biodiesel

I don't think it was winter when they tried it. I don't remember him saying anything about gelling, just (something like) "the trucks ran like **** on biodiesel."
We talked about it while hunting in November, not terribly cold yet, and it wasn't recent to him, but he's only been with this yard since march/april 2007, so that implies this happened in summertime. Summers in NY get pretty warm. :D
I don't know what their problems were specifically, it was just a dinner-table conversation. He went through it much more briefly at another company before this one, and made the same observations. I put a lot of value in this uncle's opinion, I can't read you his resume, but it's pretty impressive. When I hear him say something's not going to work, I usually find he's right.

Anyway, it was a large diesel fleet, so it makes one scratch their head a bit to think about the volume of filters and tank heaters needed to use a product that performs lower, costs the same, and is less efficient (thereby actually costing more).

I don't know how quick I'd be to blame a vendor. Wouldn't they want to provide a good enough product to create repeat business, rather than work harder to sell the above results? I can hear management now... "One bad batch, ok, let's try again. Two bad batches...something's not right...Three bad batches? Screw this stuff..."
Maybe one day BD can be made to have a higher value than dino juice, but IMO, today is not that day...
 
oh no i agree, there is alot of work that needs to be done with biodiesel, but what urks me is when people blow it off as not being the answer, and then people dont pay attention to it, and then no research takes place and we all stay put. we need to acknowledge the potential of something in order to refine it, even if it has its flaws at the current point in time. But yeah, i would say that the situations your uncle delt with were undeniably negative ones, and i dont doubt your uncles, or your interpretation of what happened.

im not sure why, but it seems like all the attempts at large scale fleet use run into these problems, while small scale producers are having reletave success.

i think the key thing is that no one or two situations support a generalization one way or the other, and there is alot more to learn, and alot more progress to be made. and it does work for some situations, and not others.
 
I find it amusing that you don't trust 4by4bygod because he is "in the industry", yet you seem to accept the biofuel industry's propaganda at face value
jerkit.gif
. "All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". It seems Paul Simon knew what he was talking about.

I believe thermal depolymerization is a much better method of making fuel from biomass. For starters, it isn't limited to oils and starches like biodiesel and ethanol. It is capable of converting ALL biomass - leaves, stalks, twigs, etc. Thus, it is much less wasteful and the fuel yield is higher. You aren't limited in feedstocks - rather than having to use an algae or crop with a high oil content, you can simply use the fastest growing, highest yield crop. Not to mention all the biomass that gets dumped in landfills, sewage slugde, you name it. The best part is that the resulting fuels are identical hydrocarbons to those derived from petroleum, so there is no change from the end user point of view. For that matter, the products of TDP can be fed into a conventional refinery and made into all the same things we make from petroleum. You can't make plastics from biodiesel or ethanol. THAT is the technology we need to be working on, not subsidized half-assed "solutions" like biodiesel.
 
As a truck driver and hearing recent news on diesel and the problems with ULSD and other related topics I have been hearing that the use of diesel additives are promoted more and more. Yet I have NEVER herd of anyone using a diesel additive with bio-diesel. That could be as simple as there are no additives developed for use with bio-diesel, but I wonder what compatibility issues could arise. My boss has us add cetane booster to every fill up. I don't know what chemicals do what as far as additives but I would be highly interested in the compatibility of current popular additives and bio-diesel. Any thoughts?
 
TO ALL READERS - i grow tired of "proving" time and time again that i am not a nieve idealist that sees biodiesel as the solution to the worlds problems. My posts should be sufficient to show that i am someone who has done alot of research on the topic, has some real world practical experience with it (although i havent been brewing myself) and has come to my viewpoints after quite a bit of effort. To those that see what i type and come to the conclusion that i only see what i want to see, and accept what i am spoon fed by the biodiesel industry, i can only scratch my head and ask why? simply because i disagree with the status quo? sorry, im just wired that way.

To that end, if you have something of worth to contribute to the conversation regarding the pro's and con's of biodiesel, you are welcome to comment. However if you are going to be childish and point and thumb noses and make false implications, then please continue on without adding your petty thoughts to the discussion.


MaxPF - Im glad i amuse you, i find your interpretation of my posts equally amusing, if perhaps a bit sad. youre misrepresenting me with your statement that i "distrust" 4by4bygod, and take the biodiesel industry at "face value". Nothing could be farther from the truth. in fact i am only a recent (within the past few years) advocate of diesel technology, and was a huge opponent to it before. I take no claims one way or the other at face value, but have been researching this issue for several years now, and as a result of that research, conducted from multiple sources, both for and against the technology, have come to my own conclusions as to the pro's and con's of the fuel. I question 4by4bygod, not to be confused with "distrust" him, because the information he is posting in some ways contradicts what all my previous research has led me to believe. this is not nieve, this is not foolhardy nor idealistic, this is science. If my previous research has indicated one result, and someone claims something else, i will ask them to provide proof or some sort of backing for that claim, which is the scientific way. And that is what we have been doing. Both of us citing examples, test data, and reports, as well as real world situations indicating a certain result. I have many times made clear that i question "industry" people as much as i do "hippies" about technology and results, i have posted many times that the technology needs further development, im really not sure how i could be more clear that i am attempting to be objective and look at both sides of the coin.

Please dont insult me by implying that i am so easily swayed as to believe what i "want" to believe without any proof. Im an atheist for a reason. And whatever views i have are baised on tangible things such as test reports, or first person accounts. so be so kind as to keep your whitty quotes from paul simon, and your little hand gestures to yourself.

In regard to pyrolysis and gasification, these are also technologies that i am highly interested in, and yes, they are far more promising at this point in their development. you might be interested in researching what is called a Plasma Arc Gasifier, used to process waste from landfills, and has acheived in excess of 100% efficiency, meaning it produces not only enough power to run itself, but excess power, as well as a fuel that can be used like natural gas, but burns cleaner. id have to go check but i believe there is a company called magnagas or magnegas that is producing machines that use this technology. In fact one of my own personal research projects has been the potential of using either pyrolysis or gasification to produce a useable fuel from the glycerine byproduct of biodiesel production, which led me to a technology known as an Aqueous Phase Reformer or APR for short. As you might read in one of my earlier posts, my school is actually conducting research in using a Plasma Arc Gasifier as an emissions control device, ripping apart the complex molecules in engine exhaust into benign elements such as nitrogen, oxygen, and basic molecules such as H2O and CO2. I also have begun research into the use of plants such as salt water grasses that can grow large quantities quickly and in non-potable water sources, to produce biomass for fuel production without using crop land and raising food prices.

but as interesting as all this is, it wasnt the purpose of the thread, i really could go on for quite a while discussing in depth all the different green technologies that are out there, but this thread was about biodiesel, so thats all i discussed, cant help it if you jumped to the false conclusion that i only new about biodiesel, and only knew what the biodiesel companies told me about it.

and actually there is research going on right now towards making plastics from wood, and currently there is a company that makes plastic food containers like the ones you buy strawberries in from the grocery store, out of corn based polymers. thats happening right now. has been for a while actually. alot of research regarding bamboo these days, its physical properties and fast growth cycle hold alot of promise for several concepts in the works.

Original Balzer - look back in my posts, i need to get to bed so cant flip through all of them right now, but in the post about the articles from the magazines, i cite an example of an additive being used somewhere in the south, produced by GE, that has been working without incident that could be attributed to the biofuels (at least at the time of the writing).
 
original balzer said:
As a truck driver and hearing recent news on diesel and the problems with ULSD and other related topics I have been hearing that the use of diesel additives are promoted more and more. Yet I have NEVER herd of anyone using a diesel additive with bio-diesel. That could be as simple as there are no additives developed for use with bio-diesel, but I wonder what compatibility issues could arise. My boss has us add cetane booster to every fill up. I don't know what chemicals do what as far as additives but I would be highly interested in the compatibility of current popular additives and bio-diesel. Any thoughts?
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from page 2 of this thread....

"pages 89-90 discuss the importance of proper manufacturing methods, as well as 3 case studies, including one using a GE stability additive called GE OTR 8003, in which they have no recorded operability problems, including filter pluggage, or fuel system related faiulres attributable to biodiesel blends"

IIRC this was involving a study using B20 fuel. and i do believe it was in the warmer southern states where gelling is less of an issue (although is can happen for reasons other than temp)

and funny thing is.... biodiesel IS a cetane booster :)
 
I have been looking into biodiesel recently, I'm not a smart guy and some of it is way over my head. My uncle is very interested in it and wants to produce it for personal use on his duramax. That is also why I am interested in it as my crew cab project is a diesel. I know this is going to sound bad and I will get flak over it, but I really don't care about the emission factor, I'm more interested in the cheap factor.

My father and uncle have secured 11 businesses for their waste oil, in my immediate area. They also obtained about 100 250 gal tanks to place at those businesses to collect it. AND to further supplement the production my uncle has found a person that claims he will take the waste byproduct (glycerol?) to make hand soap:dunno::screwy:

If this happens, I want to be able to use it. It gets VERY cold here in Utah, in fact 2 years ago when they started getting ULSD and we used it at work. I was one of the lucky guys to have it gel up on me WHILE driving down the road one really cold morning, IIRC it was negative 48 degrees that morning. It gelled up in the filters, leaving me to sit in the cold without a heater for about 2.5 hours, so anti gelling is very high on my priority list.

Im reading all the info you guys post and link to, but as I said some of it is over my head. There seams to be plenty of info to be shared, and to melt my simple brain. So by all means continue the discussion.
 
honestly most people run it for the cheap factor. and IMHO it sure beats running transmission fluid and used motor oil in the engines for the cheap factor which some people do, and i dont even want to know what the emissions for that would be.

im kinda jealous of your relatives though, my main problem out here has been finding sources for the WVO, everyone has a contract and isnt allowed to give any away. And especially finding someone who will take the glycerine, shoot. thats handy dandy.

In regards to the gelling issue, the main stuff to worry about is making your biodiesel as pure as possible, and in your case, youll probly want to do like my friend in vermont, and install a heater pad on the outside of your fuel tank, and an inline fuel filter/heater on your fuel supply line to keep the temp and therefore viscosity of the fuel up. to prevent gelling and filter plugging. of course at this stage in the game, youll all probly still want to run a mix of bio and petro diesel in the coldest months.

your uncle might also want to research the two stage method of biodiesel production, i havent had a chance to do any testing myself but it apparently does a far better job of removing the glycerine and soaps from the WVO.
 
Well since my uncles truck is a FAR more expensive truck than mine and knowing my uncle the way I do, I'm sure he will do it the best he can, witch would probably mean 2 stage and additives. We will see what happens.
 
for those curious about running biodiesel in the cold months, additives to prevent gelling, and such, check out this link...

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_winter.html

its actually a pretty good overall site about biodiesel, and appears to be all first hand knowledge associated with brewing biodiesel for personal use. I havent attempted to recreate their results but as soon as i find a place that will let me take their WVO, i will start doing 1-Liter batches to see how their methods really stack up to how they say they work.
 
This is an excellent thread on the subject. I think it should become a Sticky. K5Dreamer and 4by4bygod have handled the debate very well. Kudos to both for remembering it's a debate and not a pseudo smackdown.
 
i like the sticky idea, but i think for it to warrant that, ill have to have some more relivent data to post up. The things that both i and 4by4ygod have been talking about, really dont relate much to the home brewing truck owner. I have plans to do very comprehensive testing of home brewed biodiesel, testing viscosity, gelling, storage issues, different methods of production, and so on and so forth. All compaired to petro diesel put under the same conditions. Documented with photographs, and data charts. All relivent to the guys and girls on the forums. I think that would make a much better sticky.

the only real hold up on my testing is finding a location that will alllow me access to WVO. so i might just start off doing my testing of petro diesel, and then do some batches of biodiesel with virgin cooking oil, and get around to WVO when i can get my hands on it. it would be interesting to have results from all three anyway.

oh and ill be filling up with my first tank (well.... 3/4 tank) of B20 biodiesel tomorrow. prepping for a drive home. Ill even clock my gas mileage and see if there is a decrease or not. And yes, if it causes me any problems, i will post them up.
 
Is B11 available in your area? If so, I would like to hear some long term results from it's usage.

A good research project (if you could find somebody to fund it) would be to start with a pair of brand new identical diesel generators. Say, 50KW trailered types commonly used on job sites. Have one fueled exclusively on 100% #2 ULSD diesel, and the other exclusively on B100. After 2000 hours of run-time on each tear them down completely and check for IP wear, injector and ring coking, and any other signs of fuel-caused abnormal wear. Also, do oil analysis at each oil change during the test period. I think such tests (they may have already been done) would go a long way toward proving or disproving the suitability of biodiesel without relying on any anecdotal evidence.
 
I have printed like 200 pages of info from various web sites on biodiesel.
Now I have not read it all as I printed it so I could read at work, and a lot of it is probably over my head.

Whats this about something that grows in biodiesel? is the answer and cure probably in my reading material?

I was reading about so called "designer fuels" and how petro diesel hasn't come around to that yet like gasoline has. "chevron with techron" as an example. Thats interesting to know, now if I could understand additives for both petro and bio fuels a guy could make his to meet his needs, through the use of additives.
 
MaxPF - a agree whole heartedly, i would LOVE to get my hands on two diesel generators and do the very test you are talking about. I dont have the ability to do chemical analysis of oil and whatnot, but im sure i could find a way to do emissions testing of both, and fuel consumption testing, power output, etc. etc. Ive looked for diesel generators around here to find a test engine for other experiments, and sadley even used diesel generators are alot more money than i have to spend right now. for the cost of a used diesel generator i could get a stinger front bumper and a rear bumper with a swing away tire mount. priorities ;)

but i do agree, the only way, and really the best way to cut through the BS is the kind of testing you are talking about, and it is far overdue. hmmm..... maybe i can sell some of my professors on the idea and get the school to pay for it as some sort of school sponsored study of alterntative fuels. ill have to look into that.

In regard to B11, not really sure if anyone sells that blend, maybe it was a typo??? B10 or B100 maybe? in any case, i am on my way out today to fill up as previously stated with B20. Its not alot more expensive than regular #2, so i dont have a problem being a guinea pig to give it a shot. although as ive stated before, my personal feelings are that mixed blends are more prone to problems than strait B100, especially with modern ULSD. But hopefully ill be brewing my own B100 soon enough to switch over to.

original balzer - wikipedia is your friend ;) as someone who does alot of research on things that are over his head (theoretical quantum mechanics, particle physics, im not that well versed on thermodynamics either at this point) the gyst of the papers shouldnt be that hard, the main points that cause difficulty are certain words that you havent learned yet. wiki them and it tends to make the rest of the paper make alot more sense.

as for stuff growing in biodiesel, yes there are bacteria that grow in it. although this isnt that uncommon, JP8 (?) jet fuel also has a bacteria or fungi growth problem that they have to use additives to fight. im also pretty sure there are oil eating bacteria, so it wouldnt surprise me that part of the refining process for diesel and gasoline is a way to combat this.

regarding designer fuels such as techron, my understanding is its just a different blend of detergents and additives. but the base gasoline is the same as exxon, mobile, shell, etc.

but additives for biodiesel are an interesting concept, but ill avoid spreading misinformation on that subject, i believe 4by4bygod would be a far better person to answer those types of questions.
 
After a tear-down of two test engines than ran each fuel, I'd want to see what an actual metallurgist, not a mechanic would have to say about the condition of the parts, both before and after the test run. Someone with that expertise and the proper testing methods to check all of the surfaces would probably be very beneficial when it comes to determining wear, etc...

I'm talking everything...rings, pistons, cylinder walls, injector pump...basically any moving parts that actually come in contact with the fuel.

That would be a very interesting test, especially if it was conducted at several test points (measured in hours of usage) such as 0hrs, 100hrs, 1000hrs, 5000hrs, etc...long term is just as important as short term.
 
i applaud your tenacity, but im not really sure that a full blown metalurgic analysis is required here. no one is implying that biodiesel is corrosive, or imparts a negative trait on the pistons or valves or anything. The only real concern would be its lubrication qualities, and thus the wear on the IP and injectors, perhaps the effect of biodiesel based matter mixed with the oil due to blow by.

while i agree that the more detailed the study, the better, you kinda make it sound like running biodiesel is akin to running hydrochloric acid through the engine.

many people fail to realize that ULSD was seen up until its release as a very bad thing for older diesel engines. the lack of sulfer, which was the key lubricant in the fuel for the IP, was the primary concern, but there were others, including a negative impact on fuel O-rings, and leaks caused by this problem. This is a very similar situation to when gasoline went from leaded to unleaded, the lubrication to the engine offered by the lead in the fuel needed to be offset by new methods, the engine design had to adapt (hardened valve seats for instance) and new additives were created to run the new fuel. the same with ULSD, obviously there have been additives included in the blend because we arent seeing widespread examples of the fears that were rampant before the release of the fuel.

Biodiesel, IMHO, is no different. Yes there are challenges, yes there are bumps in the road, just like every other fuel change in the past. additives will be created, and engine design will adapt, just as it has in the past. i dont see why these obsticals are suddenly seen as such an impassible road block. it really just confuses me.
 
K5dreamer said:
i applaud your tenacity, but im not really sure that a full blown metalurgic analysis is required here. no one is implying that biodiesel is corrosive, or imparts a negative trait on the pistons or valves or anything. The only real concern would be its lubrication qualities, and thus the wear on the IP and injectors, perhaps the effect of biodiesel based matter mixed with the oil due to blow by.

while i agree that the more detailed the study, the better, you kinda make it sound like running biodiesel is akin to running hydrochloric acid through the engine.
Click to expand...

I made no such implications. I am specifically curious about the lubrication properties among other things and think real lab testing is in order before a truly educated decision is made.

Popping off the heads and looking into a cylinder and saying "looks good to me" is not scientific. I'm sure you'd agree, as would your professors or anyone who's serious about the science involved in alternate fuels. Another non-scientific approach would be to say "well, it hasn't given me any trouble yet..."

many people fail to realize that ULSD was seen up until its release as a very bad thing for older diesel engines. the lack of sulfer, which was the key lubricant in the fuel for the IP, was the primary concern, but there were others, including a negative impact on fuel O-rings, and leaks caused by this problem. This is a very similar situation to when gasoline went from leaded to unleaded, the lubrication to the engine offered by the lead in the fuel needed to be offset by new methods, the engine design had to adapt (hardened valve seats for instance) and new additives were created to run the new fuel. the same with ULSD, obviously there have been additives included in the blend because we arent seeing widespread examples of the fears that were rampant before the release of the fuel.

Biodiesel, IMHO, is no different. Yes there are challenges, yes there are bumps in the road, just like every other fuel change in the past. additives will be created, and engine design will adapt, just as it has in the past. i dont see why these obsticals are suddenly seen as such an impassible road block. it really just confuses me.
Click to expand...

Understood, but obviously you couldn't successfully run unleaded gas in an older engine without get the valve seats reworked. We're not talking about a future engine, we're talking about running it in existing diesel engines.
 
I can first hand tell you that ULSD in a semi had a dramatic negative effect on power and fuel mileage. The same hills required another gear split and slower speed at the crest and filling up the tanks went from every 3 days to every other day.

Then winter set in and I posted this in another thread as well as earlier in this one. the whole fleet had problems with the ULSD gelling and plugging filters ect.

As a truck driver and someone who owns a semi I HATE! ULSD it was a ****ty move to drive up prices and "help" emissions. in reality its to make those with fat wallets get fatter wallets. Not only have fuel prices gone up the fuel mileage dropped. No I don't have specific numbers just experience first hand, that changed my daily routines.

Same thing in the 70's switching from leaded to unleaded gasoline, and from high compression engines to lower compression engines. Gas prices went up and less efficient engines where built, that got worse mileage.

Now they have those re burner things in the exhaust, they plug up and need to burn off so you get to park your semi and run at 1100 rpm for 20-30 minutes while it does its thing. YAY! another way to burn up my hard earned dollars, that I have no control over. (even though I cant afford anything new enough to have the re burner ha ha ha)

OK I'm done with this little rant. sorry
 
oh no, i agree the eyeball check is not at all scientific enough, but i think i would be happy throwing a micrometer on the parts and checking them for wear or to see if they are still within spec after said time intervals have passed. By doing metalurgical analysis im under the impression that your asking for a full battery of fatigue tests, stress tests, chemical tests, and perhaps even electron microscope scans or a lower tech magnafluxing for cracks. all of which just seem a bit excessive unless there was reason to believe the fuel would cause the metal to become in some way brittle.

actually you can run unleaded in older cars, there is a lead additive you mix with the fuel when you fill the tank up. Anyone who owns an old MG or other british roadster is well aquanted with this type of product.

but i do get what youre saying, that most people just want to fill up and drive, without adding anything to the tank. although, with ULSD, it is still recomended that you run a diesel fuel treatment every few tanks to add lubrication additives to the fuel system to account for the lack of sulfer. I think most people are getting by without doing it, but it is still often reccomended.
 
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