I have seen a lot of people express concern about the strength of a k5 frame for serious offroading. So, while I have the frame torn down bare bones , I was thinking on boxing it in completely , and welding the crossmember's to the frame also. Do you guys think that this is something that needs to be done? Anyone done it to there k5 ? Give me some pointers.
CK5
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BOXED FRAMERAILS
- Thread starter 4xfrankie
- Start date
SCOOBYDANNN
1/2 ton status
I boxed my old one from front to rear. Our frames are made to twist. If you box only portions of the frame where it is not boxed will become the twist point and you will chase frame cracks. Also, when you box don't butt the boxed section on top of the frame instead take your time to fit sections just inside the frame. When you box outside you rely on the weld to hold and strengthen. Where if you plate just inside with a tight tolerance you have the weld and the plate to strengthen Also weld in sections. So If a crack does occurs you can stop and fix it.bottom line if you are gonna do it take your time and do it right
Should I get the kit from DIY4X? Also, should I weld up all the small holes? What welding method did you use? Did you TIG ,MIG ? What size wire?Sorry for all the questions ,but I figure the best place to ask is here.THANKS
SCOOBYDANNN
1/2 ton status
At the time no one made a kit so I dit it with a torch and mig with .035 flux. (I think). Diy kit seems pretty comprehensive but there are always subtle differences in our frames so you may be modding still. I used 3/16 plate (same as the frame)
Do a search, lots or articles on here dealing with it
Yes , already done that, just wanting people to add anything else I might have missed, or maybe to give me there opinions . Looks like I will find out when the time comes to actually do it.
Thanks so much for your input SCOOBYDANN( cool user name by the way)
I boxed mine (with a prototype kit from DIY4X) and wouldn't think of NOT doing it for serious twisting. Maybe the frames are "made to twist" but that's how body mounts and sheetmetal tear and crack too. Any serious builder will tell you that you build the chassis solid and let the suspension do the work. Mine is boxed from the front crossmember to the rear, and tied in with the cage front to back as well. It don't make any noise when its getting twisted up.
I disagree with the partially boxed statement. My frame was partially boxed for 4 years before the cab came off and a cage was put in and many other mods happened that increased overall frame strength. It was wheeled heavily in those year's. Often 6 or 7 times a month.
I also partially boxed a Blazer frame, this time on the opposite end of things. That was 5 years. No frame cracks at all or any indication of problems.
That being said, my intention was to box the entire frame on both rigs. It's just a good idea if you have the time and capability.
Zims is the best example I have seen for a while as far as boxing and adding stuff in order to make it all as strong as possible.
The frame is your foyndation, all foundations need to be strong.
Box away
I also partially boxed a Blazer frame, this time on the opposite end of things. That was 5 years. No frame cracks at all or any indication of problems.
That being said, my intention was to box the entire frame on both rigs. It's just a good idea if you have the time and capability.
Zims is the best example I have seen for a while as far as boxing and adding stuff in order to make it all as strong as possible.
The frame is your foyndation, all foundations need to be strong.
Box away
I get asked a lot of questions about boxing frames or not boxing frames and all the little details along the way so i'll chime in here.
Most common question is "do you have to box the whole thing?"
No you don't, however, there are a lot of caveats that go with that and it depends on a lot of other factors involved. The body itself makes the frame more rigid as well as cage work. These components will play a big part in the overall rigidity of the frame itself. The problems you'll run into relying on only these components is they ultimately leave some areas less supported than others. Now you need to figure out if those areas are allowed to flex enough to cause failure points next to where there is sufficient support. If you are starting and stopping boxed sections, there is a right and a wrong way to do it. Think fish mouth shaped cuts in the ends of the sections. Consider where the body and any cage work is attached to the frame and how it is attached. In the end, for the home fabricator its much simpler to box the entire frame an not have to worry about it. If you're already there boxing the frame, is it that much harder to finish it out, bumper to bumper. A blazer frame boxing kit weighs in around 78 lbs. Most commonly people like to "not" box the center 1/3. You're only saving 26 lbs. and its some of the cheapest weight from a COG stand point.
Probably the second most common question is "how thick should the plates be?"
We make our plates from 10ga. steel, just over 1/8" thick. Some have requested 3/16" or 7ga. steel. Obviously 1/2" thick would be retarded as would 18ga. but realistically its the shape of the completed structural member that is most important here. The rectangular tube wins the day. We can just as easily make them from 7ga. but you're paying for shipping charges that really don't do you much good. Going up from 10 ga. to 7 ga. increased the weight of the kit from 78 lbs to 117. Again, not astronomical but its an additional 39lbs that is IMHO really unnecessary. The only time I can think of that a thicker plate may be better is if you're dropping your chassis on the rocks and want the extra thickness to prevent some denting. There are better ways to protect those vulnerable areas, like skid plates and the like,.... and there is another thing that may increase the rigidity of your frame.
Another common one, "plates on the surface or tucked back inside just a touch?"
Structurally it doesn't make a huge difference. Easier to weld tucked back inside a touch, however, you must now consider things like cross members. If you want them to simply unbolt and drop straight down, that lip will make a difference. Easy enough to work around. Let's suppose you leave a 1/4" lip. Use a 1/4" plate where that cross member is placed to effectively eliminate the lip and the cross member will drop straight down and free from the chassis. I guess on this one, consider your welding skills and do it accordingly. Personally I think it looks much cleaner to put the boxing sections on the surface rather than slightly inside but that's just me.
Other things to consider,
The front shackle hanger will need to be dealt with. A tube welded through both sides of the frame will do the trick, just keep your frame thickness in mind here.
Steering box bolts, Same solution is the best. Drill straight through both sides and use a bushing welded both sides. DRILL STRAIGHT!! take the time and build a drill guide.
How to attach your cross members should be planned ahead. Some should definitely be removable. Others not as important. Some I like to make a generic flange on the frame. Then the cross member itself can be built for a specific item and changed later for a different thing. Think engine swaps. One flange that could work for several cross members.
Hanging items such as fuel tanks and the like should also be planned ahead of time.
Last one, "is it worth it?"
I can only answer this with my opinion so here goes, Absolutely! After having wheeled a truck before and after boxing the frame with no other real changes, the difference was night and day. The steering box that kept coming lose, stopped coming loose. The creaks and moans and groans coming from the chassis and body were completely eliminated. For the first time we got to see what the suspension was actually doing rather than a combination of the suspension and frame flex. The doors opened no matter how twisted we got things.
One last word, If you're not familiar with working sheet metal, get some help. I'd rather you not buy our kit then purchase it and do an install that you are unhappy with and potentially ruin your frame. The kits come in flat form in section lengths determined by what cuts well for us and ships well through UPS. This does not mean they need to be installed this way. You may want to cut them down, you may not. You need to be able to bend the material in and out around the various curves of the frame. As stated above, none of our frames are the same as they were the day they came off the assembly line. We've gotten the box kits close but they will require fitting. The kits are designed to be a convenience. If you have modified your frame extensively or you are trying to modify a kit to fit something else, the convenience may have just flown out the window.
If anybody has any questions I haven't covered, ask away or call me. Always happy to discuss.
Most common question is "do you have to box the whole thing?"
No you don't, however, there are a lot of caveats that go with that and it depends on a lot of other factors involved. The body itself makes the frame more rigid as well as cage work. These components will play a big part in the overall rigidity of the frame itself. The problems you'll run into relying on only these components is they ultimately leave some areas less supported than others. Now you need to figure out if those areas are allowed to flex enough to cause failure points next to where there is sufficient support. If you are starting and stopping boxed sections, there is a right and a wrong way to do it. Think fish mouth shaped cuts in the ends of the sections. Consider where the body and any cage work is attached to the frame and how it is attached. In the end, for the home fabricator its much simpler to box the entire frame an not have to worry about it. If you're already there boxing the frame, is it that much harder to finish it out, bumper to bumper. A blazer frame boxing kit weighs in around 78 lbs. Most commonly people like to "not" box the center 1/3. You're only saving 26 lbs. and its some of the cheapest weight from a COG stand point.
Probably the second most common question is "how thick should the plates be?"
We make our plates from 10ga. steel, just over 1/8" thick. Some have requested 3/16" or 7ga. steel. Obviously 1/2" thick would be retarded as would 18ga. but realistically its the shape of the completed structural member that is most important here. The rectangular tube wins the day. We can just as easily make them from 7ga. but you're paying for shipping charges that really don't do you much good. Going up from 10 ga. to 7 ga. increased the weight of the kit from 78 lbs to 117. Again, not astronomical but its an additional 39lbs that is IMHO really unnecessary. The only time I can think of that a thicker plate may be better is if you're dropping your chassis on the rocks and want the extra thickness to prevent some denting. There are better ways to protect those vulnerable areas, like skid plates and the like,.... and there is another thing that may increase the rigidity of your frame.
Another common one, "plates on the surface or tucked back inside just a touch?"
Structurally it doesn't make a huge difference. Easier to weld tucked back inside a touch, however, you must now consider things like cross members. If you want them to simply unbolt and drop straight down, that lip will make a difference. Easy enough to work around. Let's suppose you leave a 1/4" lip. Use a 1/4" plate where that cross member is placed to effectively eliminate the lip and the cross member will drop straight down and free from the chassis. I guess on this one, consider your welding skills and do it accordingly. Personally I think it looks much cleaner to put the boxing sections on the surface rather than slightly inside but that's just me.
Other things to consider,
The front shackle hanger will need to be dealt with. A tube welded through both sides of the frame will do the trick, just keep your frame thickness in mind here.
Steering box bolts, Same solution is the best. Drill straight through both sides and use a bushing welded both sides. DRILL STRAIGHT!! take the time and build a drill guide.
How to attach your cross members should be planned ahead. Some should definitely be removable. Others not as important. Some I like to make a generic flange on the frame. Then the cross member itself can be built for a specific item and changed later for a different thing. Think engine swaps. One flange that could work for several cross members.
Hanging items such as fuel tanks and the like should also be planned ahead of time.
Last one, "is it worth it?"
I can only answer this with my opinion so here goes, Absolutely! After having wheeled a truck before and after boxing the frame with no other real changes, the difference was night and day. The steering box that kept coming lose, stopped coming loose. The creaks and moans and groans coming from the chassis and body were completely eliminated. For the first time we got to see what the suspension was actually doing rather than a combination of the suspension and frame flex. The doors opened no matter how twisted we got things.
One last word, If you're not familiar with working sheet metal, get some help. I'd rather you not buy our kit then purchase it and do an install that you are unhappy with and potentially ruin your frame. The kits come in flat form in section lengths determined by what cuts well for us and ships well through UPS. This does not mean they need to be installed this way. You may want to cut them down, you may not. You need to be able to bend the material in and out around the various curves of the frame. As stated above, none of our frames are the same as they were the day they came off the assembly line. We've gotten the box kits close but they will require fitting. The kits are designed to be a convenience. If you have modified your frame extensively or you are trying to modify a kit to fit something else, the convenience may have just flown out the window.
If anybody has any questions I haven't covered, ask away or call me. Always happy to discuss.
Thanks for that, this tells me a lot about your customer service. Best reply I have gotten on any of these internet forums.TWO THUMBS UP!!
Here is an example of inset frame boxing with a spacer plate to bring the crossmember back out flush with the frame rail. This is my preferred method since it gives you a nice lip to do a fillet weld and makes the crossmember tie in that much stronger by welding the fish plate spacer on. On this main crossmember I used 3/16" plate inside the frame rail, set back 1/4" with a 1/4" fish plate spacer to bring the 1/4" crossmember end plate back out flush with the frame rail so it can drop straight down for removal. The rest of the frame will get boxed with 1/8" except for where other crossmember tie ins may be. Another thing I like to do that makes a big difference is planning what I am going to mount before I plate a section of frame. This lets me drill holes and weld flange nuts to the backside of the plate since the nuts will eventually be inaccessible. Alternatively you could drill holes through both sides of the boxed frame and sleeve it with some tube and through-bolt everything. My way is easier and less expensive.
And, thank you for that ,truck -aholic.
Here is an example of inset frame boxing with a spacer plate to bring the crossmember back out flush with the frame rail. This is my preferred method since it gives you a nice lip to do a fillet weld and makes the crossmember tie in that much stronger by welding the fish plate spacer on. On this main crossmember I used 3/16" plate inside the frame rail, set back 1/4" with a 1/4" fish plate spacer to bring the 1/4" crossmember end plate back out flush with the frame rail so it can drop straight down for removal. The rest of the frame will get boxed with 1/8" except for where other crossmember tie ins may be. Another thing I like to do that makes a big difference is planning what I am going to mount before I plate a section of frame. This lets me drill holes and weld flange nuts to the backside of the plate since the nuts will eventually be inaccessible. Alternatively you could drill holes through both sides of the boxed frame and sleeve it with some tube and through-bolt everything. My way is easier and less expensive.
Thanks , man.
Here is an example of inset frame boxing with a spacer plate to bring the crossmember back out flush with the frame rail. This is my preferred method since it gives you a nice lip to do a fillet weld and makes the crossmember tie in that much stronger by welding the fish plate spacer on. On this main crossmember I used 3/16" plate inside the frame rail, set back 1/4" with a 1/4" fish plate spacer to bring the 1/4" crossmember end plate back out flush with the frame rail so it can drop straight down for removal. The rest of the frame will get boxed with 1/8" except for where other crossmember tie ins may be. Another thing I like to do that makes a big difference is planning what I am going to mount before I plate a section of frame. This lets me drill holes and weld flange nuts to the backside of the plate since the nuts will eventually be inaccessible. Alternatively you could drill holes through both sides of the boxed frame and sleeve it with some tube and through-bolt everything. My way is easier and less expensive.
perfect example. Nice work.
