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Brake light comes and goes

andyblack

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Maybe someone can help with this. My parking brake light came on and stayed on one day. I checked, and obviously the parking brake was not engaged. So I bled the brakes. No air bubbles came out of the rear drums, but there was some in both the front wheel cylinders, especially the driver's side. After I bled them, the light went out, but then it started coming on intermittently when I would depress the brake pedal. So I bled them twice more. Same results. Still had air in the front and not the rear. Now the light is staying on almost constantly. What gives? I got new calipers and hoses about a year ago and didn't have any trouble until the other day. This is on an '85 with 10 bolt axles.
 
I didn't think that light came on except when the ebrake was pressed down. I wasn't aware that it had any "real sense" that something else is wrong with the braking system?!? :confused: The only ones I know that actually give an error through the brake light are the 90 and 91's with ABS.

I would check to see if the brake switch is OK first. Isn't there a switch just by the e-brake pedal somewhere? Perhaps it can be adjusted a little. I know there is one on the regular brake pedal.

I'd first check there.
 
I think the main concern should be the air in the system, not a faulty switch. The switch is doing what it's supposed to and detecting a problem. I think it is significant that the light comes on now only when you apply the brakes.
I 'd say it's most likely a master cylinder issue- bad seal in the front circuit.

Another possibility is a hole or leak in one of the hard lines in the front circuit.

It would be very unlikely, but it is also possible that the switch is letting air in. The switch that is causing your light is probably the one screwed into the proportioning valve.
 
Okay thanks. So is there a way to check to see what's bad? Or should I just go ahead and get another master cylinder? I hate to buy a rebuilt one because they always leak fluid after a couple of years or so.

Is the front (smaller) chamber on the master cylinder for the front brakes? I thought it was for the rear for some reason. Could it be the proportioning valve itself that's the culprit? :confused:

I wish I knew a way to check all this stuff so I wouldn't go replacing something that doesn't need replacing.
 
I think the main concern should be the air in the system, not a faulty switch. The switch is doing what it's supposed to and detecting a problem. I think it is significant that the light comes on now only when you apply the brakes.
I 'd say it's most likely a master cylinder issue- bad seal in the front circuit.

Another possibility is a hole or leak in one of the hard lines in the front circuit.

It would be very unlikely, but it is also possible that the switch is letting air in. The switch that is causing your light is probably the one screwed into the proportioning valve.

So it IS tied into the master cylinder somewhere? Any other areas? I didn't know that......
 
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but isn't the parking/ebrake a cable system that's completely separate from the hydraulic brakes' normal operation? In my mind the only thing that can trip the parking brake indicator light is the switch/relay on the parking brake pedal.

...or possibly a short in that circuit somewhere...
 
When I let up off the brakes, it will usually go off, but there's a certain point when I'm about to come to a complete stop and I can tell it's going to light up. And it does.
 
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but isn't the parking/ebrake a cable system that's completely separate from the hydraulic brakes' normal operation? In my mind the only thing that can trip the parking brake indicator light is the switch/relay on the parking brake pedal.

...or possibly a short in that circuit somewhere...

That's what I used to think too but apparently there's more than one switch that can make that light come on. You learn new things all the time. :D
 
When I let up off the brakes, it will usually go off, but there's a certain point when I'm about to come to a complete stop and I can tell it's going to light up. And it does.

Still drum brakes in the rear? I'm actually wondering if something's binding inside the drum itselff that might be pulling at the cable and tweaking the light. Missing a spring can make the innards shift and rock in there.
 
Still drum brakes in the rear? I'm actually wondering if something's binding inside the drum itselff that might be pulling at the cable and tweaking the light. Missing a spring can make the innards shift and rock in there.

I may have to check that. I didn't think of that. I have been hearing some creaking when I step on the brakes but it seems to be coming from the front. I just assumed it was the pistons moving inside their bore or something.

The rear still has the drums.
 
I think the main concern should be the air in the system, not a faulty switch. The switch is doing what it's supposed to and detecting a problem. I think it is significant that the light comes on now only when you apply the brakes.
I 'd say it's most likely a master cylinder issue- bad seal in the front circuit.

Another possibility is a hole or leak in one of the hard lines in the front circuit.

It would be very unlikely, but it is also possible that the switch is letting air in. The switch that is causing your light is probably the one screwed into the proportioning valve.

I agree with all of this. IIRC, there are 2 switches that will turn the "Brake" light on. One is the switch on the emergency brake pedal, the other is the switch on the proportioning/combination valve. I, for the life of me, can't remember if there is a brake fluid level switch on the Blazer MC reservoir. If there is, that will switch the light too.

If you are positive there is air in the lines, this is most certainly what is causing the light to illuminate. The proportioning or combination valve is sensing different fluid pressures or flow rates in the two chambers and giving you a warning light. You have a hole in the system somewhere. Have someone pump the brakes and follow each line. Look for fluid spray or hissing noises.

If your truck has been in the grass for a while, your lines will rust out pretty quickly. Pay special attention to the front right where the hard line joins the rubber hoses, and the line across the rear axle to the wheel cylinders. Check wheel cylinders too. And anywhere you have any mud/grass buildup.

Possible it is a master cylinder problem too. Eliminate the problems that are easy to spot first.
 
Hmm, my setup is a little different than that. My combination valve is near the steering gear box on the crossmember. IIRC, the switch screws into it and has a single wire coming from it. I'm pretty sure that is the same one you have pictured there, just higher up.
 
Hmm, my setup is a little different than that. My combination valve is near the steering gear box on the crossmember. IIRC, the switch screws into it and has a single wire coming from it. I'm pretty sure that is the same one you have pictured there, just higher up.

That's where mine is too. On the crossmember by the steering box. I don't remember seeing one up there by the master cylinder. I'll look this afternoon.
 
OK here is the deal:
There is a switch on the PV it will detect when the pressure from one side is too much more than the other which is usually air in the system, there is a piston that travels from side to side to compensate for a little difference in pressure but if there is air it will go all the way and trip the light.
And you are confirming that it is the problem because you are finding air.
Now to find the source is the problem.
You could throw at it all new parts and most likely it will get fixed and that is how big shops fix it, but if you want to know you need to look more carefully and see if the PV is leaking or if the MC is leaking or if the bleeder screws on the front calipers are not sealing right.
You could also have air in the system and you didn't get it all, the first time you need to do a good flushing of the system and bleed all the air and see if the problem comes back in a few days then you have a leak somewhere.
One good way is to keep the MC topped off and the bleeders open with a clear tube connected and raised to the hood level, the air will slowly go up to the top without draining a bunch of fluid.
It might take an overnight to get it all done.
Also in the MC the smaller compartment is for the front and the rear has the bigger one because the drum brakes need more volume since the shoes are far not touching like the front pads which only need pressure to stop, the rear needs to move the shoes to touch and then press.:thumb:
I had this problem in my 73 and took me 6 months to find my problem in the MC.
 
Wow thanks. Lots of good info there. So are you talking about running clear tubes from the bleeders back up to the MC or just out into space or what? I have one of those one man bleeder bottle things. Could I just leave it hooked up? How can I get all the air out of the system without pumping the pedal?
 
Wow thanks. Lots of good info there. So are you talking about running clear tubes from the bleeders back up to the MC or just out into space or what? I have one of those one man bleeder bottle things. Could I just leave it hooked up? How can I get all the air out of the system without pumping the pedal?

Well what I do is usually run down a long hill and pump the brakes a few good pumps, which usually gets most of the air out but once it's all pumped, you release and open up the bleeders with the clear lines not hooked to anything just going up, and let gravity work, just make sure the MC is full.
You will watch for bubbles what will start forming and moving up in the tubes.
It will show you also where the air was so later if you get more problems you know where to look for trouble.
 
OK, I have knowledge of all different brands and models of vehicles. Problem is, keeping them all straight.
So, some of this may be wrong.....

Depending on the year, they are right in that either the switch on the emergency brake pedal or the proportioning valve will turn on that light.

Easy way to make sure. With the key on, and the brake light out, lightly press the E-brake and see if the light comes on.
A weak return spring can let the pedal move far enough due to its weight to turn the light on sometimes.
Quick test for that is to disconnect that switch and see if the problem stops.

Some vehicles also have a fluid level switch that will turn on a light. But you will see some wires going to the master cylinder if you have that switch.

The proportioning valve switch is a spring loaded piston with a reduced center that a spring loaded plunger sits in.
When you step on the brakes, the piston sees pressure from both the front and back brake lines.
As long as they are about equal in pressure and flow, the piston stays centered. If there is a big difference like with a burst line or bubbles on one side, it moves over and the plunger pushes up and turns on the light.

Again easy to check. When the light turns on, stop the truck, and with the light still on, unplug the wire on the valve. If the light goes off, then that is the switch that is turning it on.

Now, working from memory, the bigger chamber of the MC is for the front brakes, since the caliper diameter is about 3 inches across, and the rear cylinder is about 3/4 inch.
Takes lots more fluid.

Plus, if the rear adjusters are working, then the rear cylinder take the same amount of fluid each time. Since the adjusters move the other end of the shoes apart and the cylinder pistons should move the same amount.

The front calipers take much more fluid per amount of travel since they are so much bigger than the rear.
Plus, when the pads are new, the pistons are almost all the way in. As they wear, they move out and stay out.
So more fluid is required.

Again its easy to check. Take the top off the MC, have some one watch it, while you stick a prybar in the inspection hole of the caliper and pry the pad back toward the piston pushing the piston back slightly.
As soon as it moves, there will be a little geyser in whichever chamber is hooked to the front.
Don't move it much, or you will get a light when you hit the brakes next time.

Next, hit the brakes a few times to get everything bottomed out. Release the brakes, have someone watch the fluid with the top off.
Press the brakes hard, hold for a second and then let them off.
If you have air in a line, you will see a gusher in that chamber as the air expands and pushes the fluid back into the MC.
You might see a small movement with no air, but if there is air its fairly obvious.

Next, if you have air in any lines, make a note of which line has the has the air. That will help you pinpoint where its coming from.

For instance, if the left front is the one each time, then the problem is between the dividing point and the caliper. So, check the fittings, bleeder screw, and flex line.
If those are good, it might be getting sucked back around the piston seals.

If its in both front lines, then the problem is going to common to both lines. MC, prop. valve, fittings.

If you are getting air each time, and its not getting in anywhere, then you don't need to do any special bleeding techniques. You will eventually get it all out. If its getting in after bleeding, then nothing will get it all out until you fix the problem.
 
I know it doesn't make sense, but the smaller compartment is the one for front.:waytogo:
OK, I have knowledge of all different brands and models of vehicles. Problem is, keeping them all straight.
So, some of this may be wrong.....

Depending on the year, they are right in that either the switch on the emergency brake pedal or the proportioning valve will turn on that light.

Easy way to make sure. With the key on, and the brake light out, lightly press the E-brake and see if the light comes on.
A weak return spring can let the pedal move far enough due to its weight to turn the light on sometimes.
Quick test for that is to disconnect that switch and see if the problem stops.

Some vehicles also have a fluid level switch that will turn on a light. But you will see some wires going to the master cylinder if you have that switch.

The proportioning valve switch is a spring loaded piston with a reduced center that a spring loaded plunger sits in.
When you step on the brakes, the piston sees pressure from both the front and back brake lines.
As long as they are about equal in pressure and flow, the piston stays centered. If there is a big difference like with a burst line or bubbles on one side, it moves over and the plunger pushes up and turns on the light.

Again easy to check. When the light turns on, stop the truck, and with the light still on, unplug the wire on the valve. If the light goes off, then that is the switch that is turning it on.

Now, working from memory, the bigger chamber of the MC is for the front brakes, since the caliper diameter is about 3 inches across, and the rear cylinder is about 3/4 inch.
Takes lots more fluid.

Plus, if the rear adjusters are working, then the rear cylinder take the same amount of fluid each time. Since the adjusters move the other end of the shoes apart and the cylinder pistons should move the same amount.

The front calipers take much more fluid per amount of travel since they are so much bigger than the rear.
Plus, when the pads are new, the pistons are almost all the way in. As they wear, they move out and stay out.
So more fluid is required.

Again its easy to check. Take the top off the MC, have some one watch it, while you stick a prybar in the inspection hole of the caliper and pry the pad back toward the piston pushing the piston back slightly.
As soon as it moves, there will be a little geyser in whichever chamber is hooked to the front.
Don't move it much, or you will get a light when you hit the brakes next time.

Next, hit the brakes a few times to get everything bottomed out. Release the brakes, have someone watch the fluid with the top off.
Press the brakes hard, hold for a second and then let them off.
If you have air in a line, you will see a gusher in that chamber as the air expands and pushes the fluid back into the MC.
You might see a small movement with no air, but if there is air its fairly obvious.

Next, if you have air in any lines, make a note of which line has the has the air. That will help you pinpoint where its coming from.

For instance, if the left front is the one each time, then the problem is between the dividing point and the caliper. So, check the fittings, bleeder screw, and flex line.
If those are good, it might be getting sucked back around the piston seals.

If its in both front lines, then the problem is going to common to both lines. MC, prop. valve, fittings.

If you are getting air each time, and its not getting in anywhere, then you don't need to do any special bleeding techniques. You will eventually get it all out. If its getting in after bleeding, then nothing will get it all out until you fix the problem.
 
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