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Bumper Air Tanks Yea or Nay?

Should I make the bumper an air tank?

  • Yea

    Votes: 95 68.3%
  • Nay

    Votes: 44 31.7%

  • Total voters
    139
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79k20350 said:
i saw i posted a while ago about using the ac compressor instead of the york. you can make this work, you just need an inline oiler before the compressor and a seperator afterwards to make it work. very easy to do especially cause its already there:D
I'm very interested in doing this, could you elaborate on how to do this anymore? I have AC with R12, and would love to have OBA, so any details or pics of a setup to keep it oiled would be AWSOME :bow:
thanks,
james
 
1st you have to disable the AC system and have the R12 evacuated. Then its the same deal as with a York just add oil at the inlet when you engage the clutch. It's a cheep and crappy way to get OBA.
 
79k20350, using an old A6 compressor for air isn't an option for me. I removed it a long time ago. I'm currently building mounts for a Sanden compressor for the AC. The York will sit next to it someday. Either way I still need an air tank.

bigjbear, what's your take on the bumper air tank?
 
i just saw it earlier on and thought that i would inform people its possible. i know you still need an airtank and didnt mean to hijack. as for oiling it, any hardware store or lowes/ home depot should have an inline aircompressor oiler. you run that on the intake air side, and an oil/ air seperater on the outlet side. its a very cheap and easy way to do it. i dont have a setup but its most likely what im going to do. any reason why its so crappy? other than a few second without much oil i cant think of any. especially for how much id use it.
 
I already told you on PG 2, post #16:D

I don't have any data to back it up, but a bumper made if .125" wall tube doesn't scare me. I have SEEN air tank bumpers and rocksliders withstand the full weight of a K5 being dropped on them. If I ever build a belt driven pump in a K5 I'll put a semi tank under the hood. If it was something like a Sami I'd probably use a bumper. They just don't have the room.
 
I think he was talking to me 79k20350. Don't worry about the hijacking. I'm always interested in onboard air. I don't like the A6 because the plumbing gets really messy. Oil seperators usually don't catch all of the oil either. I like my air nice and dry. The York just seems like it was made for OBA.


Sorry bigjbear I should've looked more carefully.
 
Ideally i would use a york. right now i just dont have the welding abilty. i know i could fab up brackets, just not sure the welds would hold. thats what makes a standard ac comprssor appealing to me. i cant see why the bumper wouldnt work well if properly engineered and fabbed though. its a decent amount of pressure but i cant see 3/16" steel becoming shrapnel.
 
MarcS said:
Canmore summed it up a lot better than me.

I would not want to be some rescue worker at an accident, cutting someone out of a car when one of your crappy welds burst because you wanted to think your an engineer and or above the law.

I've also noticed most people that responded "Yea" are under 25 years old and still in that "Know it all" phase of life.

I'm done with the subject. I can afford to buy the properly approved containers and mounts.

Welds burst? Do you have any idea what you just said? In order for it to be remotely dangerous you'd have to be using a cutting torch without safety glasses. I haven't seen anyone provide a law that says you can't have bumpers with pressurized air in them.

It's not a "know it all" phase in life, it's called common sense and being something besides booksmart and braindead... like most wannabe mechanical engineers.

The only way it'd be remotely dangerous is if:
You could somehow squish the tube so the pressure inside grows astronomically so your air fitting shoots off... assuming you're retarded and didn't install a blowoff valve or somehow you have indestructible hoses...
You could somehow get something the size of a BB to shoot out the fitting or valve.


ntsqd said:
You are right, I can't qoute them verbatim. Can you?

Adding thickness to replace good design is exceptionally bad practice. At the risk of offending someone I'll call that the N-rigged method of building it. Has it occurred to anyone here that maybe those design practices, REGARDLESS of the metal thickness, came about b/c of bad experiences? Why the **** do you want to risk repeating them?

I learned a long time ago in dealing with mechanical engineers with doctorates that just because someone thinks they're smart that doesn't mean they have any real world experience.

I believe most guidelines, specifications, and requirements are to keep dumb engineers from making mistakes that can cost people their lives. Our campus has a walkway that can't be used in the wintertime due to the fact that it can't support both people and snow load. The architect, engineers, and builders all were there when there was snow on the ground and the walkway was actually built in the snow. Common sense can look at something and say "wow, I bet them there bridgemajigger can have enough snow piled on top of it to be equivalent of having 4" of water spread over the entire span".


ntsqd said:
You have obviously never set off a "veggie bomb." 6 times out of 10 it will do as you describe. The other 4 times one end goes flying. It IS effectively shrapnel. Those are not good odds.

Using what as the propellant? Compressed air? If it was merely compressed air then what were you using for the tube? A carpet tube? If you were using a flammable gas then what do you think the pressure is, 10,000psi? 20,000 psi?

I've made a bunch of them in the past, used acetylene and oxygen as the propellant.


Honestly, the AC system in your automobile is more dangerous than a mild steel bumper filled full of air. The AC system in your automobile has highly flammable oil in it... and if it happens to use a flammable refrigerant (some states have banned this) then it's doubly dangerous. 200+psi of flaming fun. What happens when the AC condensor ruptures... which is often close to 100psi? Do people die from little fins hitting them in the colon or something? Yeah, that's what I thought.


Yeah, there's a small amount of danger in using a bumper with compressed air in it. It's all relative I guess. I'd say it's about as dangerous as cleaning your fish tank. It's not like you're playing racquetball with a hand grenade.
 
CanmoreK5 said:
A student?

I knew it.............. I just knew it.
Isn't it against CK5's rules for moderators to insult others?

I've got a BSEE, have had it for some time now.

Honestly, I'm itching for you to prove me wrong and make me eat my words. Going by the fact that some of you just keeping saying "no" with nothing to back it up other than a feeble theory tells me that I'll be going hungry for a while.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340613
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333700
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324046
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=219105

and the list goes on.
 
Last edited:
Another 2 cents

From a former HazMat background, with real life experience with burst pressure vessels, including everything from propane tanks to railway tank cars, I personally am 100% confident that an impact would not result in projectiles, given half decent welding technique and approved fittings. Split seams or welds? Sure. Complete weld failure (ie. the round end caps)? Unlikely. That said, a pressure relief valve as mentioned would be a nice touch.

And as mentioned (though I have one myself) CO2 tanks in the truck are VERY DANGEROUS. Deadly projectiles if not mounted securely, and as mentioned if the valve is sheared off, you are looking an immediate displacement of oxygen, which could and likely would result in death or unconsciousness.

Oh and as a firefighter, I think it is really cool that our safety is being considered, as car fires and accidents are probably the most dangerous situations we find ourselves in. And finding an unmarked pressurized vessel in the back of a random civilian truck would be a hell of a scary situation.
 
Personally, what ppl post over on PoOR means less than nothing to me. For the most part they're bunch of parrots repeating what someone else said, and in an authoratative voice. Their quotee may or may not have known of what he/she spoke.

The biggest issue as I see it is Hoop Stress. This is part of every ME's education and is outside of an EE's, but any Engineer or like-wise math educated person shouldn't have any trouble with the math as that education took you far beyond it, and the formula is easy enough to find.

The problem is that the formula is laid out for ROUND, not square. The next factor is the bending fatigue that flat end cap exerts on the welds holding it. Welds are, at best, "on-site" castings. So while the flat plate may be able to withstand the pressure w/o catastrophic failure, it will bend at least a little under pressure. Over time what are the cyclic effects of the bending loads on the welds?

I have witnessed what a large volume of ~15 psi can do to 3/4" thick 316 Stainless plate. It was sobering and I have NO intention of repeating the experience.

Design standards are the culmination of years of experience from many people, in this case over the span of at least 100 years. They have observed what didn't work and wasn't safe, what did work and still wasn't safe, and what did work and was safe. That experience is then condensed and put in a format that (hopefully) allows others to design parts, in this case pessure vessels, that are both safe and work correctly. These stds are not handed out/down by Gov't entity based on nothing. To dismiss these stds out of hand in favor a single person's experience (maybe and maybe not combined with what his buddies say) is bordering on criminal negligence.

I do not know what the entire ASTM PV section says. I've only found part of it (thin walled), and nowhere in what I've read are square or rectangular pressure vessels mentioned or discussed. Pending further info I am left to conclude that these designs are not to be considered. The very fact that a pressurized container is trying it's hardest to assume a rounded shape seems pretty darned significant to me.

As to degrees, I've had my Engineering degree for over 5 years. It is a custom combination of Mechanical Engineering and Manufacturing Engineering. I earned it at the age of 38. B4 then I worked in everything from Gunsmith to Mold Pattern Maker to professional race crew to Ultra High Vacuum Sputtering Machine manufacture.
 
I few quick calculations show that my hoop stess will be 10638 PSI. My 3/16" edge welds will see a load of 94 lbsf per linear inch. These loads are so small fatigue will take millions of cycles to cause a failure. I doubt I'll make it into the thousands.

ASTMs don't give every possible solution to a problem. They only give guidelines for common solutions. Thanks for the resume.
 
I emailed the DOT on the subject, got this reply.


"Dear DOT Customer:
Thank you for contacting the Department of Transportation. Your email has been forwarded to the National Transportation Library Reference Service in the Bureau of Transportation Statistics. This is to acknowledge that we received your email message on Jan 31 2006 1:33PM"


When I get the answer, I'll post it and email it to whoever wants it.
 
CyberSniper said:
I've got a BSEE, have had it for some time now.http://

I knew I liked you. Me have BSEE too. And I'm not afraid of compressed air, fire, chemicals, or lifting my truck either. :eek1: :eek1:
 
The DOT referred me to the Office of Hazardous Materials Safety (HAZMAT).
Resent the question to them, will post when I get it. Here is the DOT reply.


Dear DOT customer,

I suggest that you direct your question to the Office of Hazardous Materials Safety (HAZMAT). Contact information is as follows:

The toll-free number (in the U.S.): 1-800-HMR-4922 (1-800-467-4922)

The toll number, for WashingtonDC and/or foreign residents: 202-366-4488.
The hotline operates Monday through Friday from 9:00 am to 5:00 pm (EST).

To contact HAZMAT Regional offices, please see: http://hazmat.dot.gov/contact/locatn.htm

Otherwise, please see: http://hazmat.dot.gov/contact/info_feedbk.htm
(For text-only browsers, send feedback to: [email protected])

For *IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY* notification of Hazardous Materials Incidents, please call the
National Response Center (NRC):
800-424-8802 (toll-free)
202-267-2675 (toll)


To access HAZMAT regulations and interpretations, please visit: http://www.myregs.com/dotrspa


Sincerely,
Reference Services
National Transportation Library
Bureau of Transportation Statistics
Research and Innovative Technology Administration
U. S. Department of Transportation
 
I really don't think you will get anywhere with them. It is only a hazardous material in that it is a compressed gas. And though it hasn't come up professionally my guess is that a non flammable, non poisonous, non corrosive gas must be compressed to a minimum amount to even count.

What does matter for sure, is the size of the vessel. That is, a gas might have to be placarded it it is carried in bulk. The volume of air, in a bumper wouldn't meet that requirement.

The 'Office of HazMat' wouldn't police tank construction. I'm surprised that the DOT doesn't have more info on that.

Further thought got me comparing the risk factor of these bumpers to that of transport truck air tanks, hydraulic cylinders in road legal heavy equipment, ie fire trucks, cranes, bucket trucks, and even factory gas charged bumpers. Those things all contain MASSIVE amounts of potential energy and aren't 'policed'.

And yes I understand that if the operator operated and maintained his equipment properly there would be no potential energy in the hydraulic systems.

Just some thoughts. I really do hope we get to the bottom of this though, it is interesting. I am going to write a letter to the automotive section of the newspaper here too. They answer stuff like this all the time. I'll let you know if I ever get an answer.
 
OK, here it is right from the US DOT.

First they consider a compressed gas anything over 40.6 psi @ 60 degrees F.

They told me on the phone that anything used for "Personal use" is NOT REGULATED.

"Commersial use IS REGULATED".

They have no problems with bumpers used as air tanks.

They did say however, that it's possible that another entity they are not aware of may regulate them though. So they said the old standby....Check with your local officials for any regulations.

They then said to check with the NHTSA. I emailed them, but haven't heard anything.

So far I am wrong about the subject. But I do stand behind my opinion that many people here don't have the skill/knowledge to either engineer and or properly weld a pressure vessel.
 
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