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Calling GM Techs (98 T10 Fuel Delivery issues)

Jagged

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TL;DR truck won't start, funny business with the injectors




So, for some time Heather's (gofergurl) 98 GMC Jimmy has had some starting issues. About a year or so ago I changed out the battery, and that helped for a while.

Once winter set in, the issues came back.

I hooked up a fuel pressure gauge and my Snap-On MT2500.

After turning the key on, the fuel pressure would hit about 50+ PSI, then rapdly fall (about 5-8 PSI per second). No troubles were evident on the computer, other than the ECT sensor was reading a bit high.

Throughout most of the winter and early spring, the truck would only have problems starting when it was cold outside (temps above 40 degrees seemed to be agreeable to the truck).

By "problems starting" I mean that you have to crank the engine several times before it starts, and occaisonally when the motor would stumble there would be an odd thump right around where the torque converter would be.

Anyways, several weeks ago I finally had some free time and decided to try changing the fuel filter before trying to acquire a fuel pump. By the time I got done with the filter, my arms were black. There was a lot of nasty crap in that old filter (it was maybe 1-2 years old).

The truck ran pretty good for a week or so, and then started having problems again.

We dropped it off to get it's annual safety inspection about a week or so ago. After it failed for some lighting problems, we went to pick it up. That truck did not want to start at all.

We finally got it home, and I told Heather that she won't be driving it until we fix the starting issue (because I don't want to be burning up starters and batteries).

So, now I have the fuel pressure gauge and the MT2500 hooked back up.

Fuel pressure holds steady at 50 PSI. Alldata says it should be 60-66 PSI or so.

Running the injector balance test on the MT2500, sometimes I can get all 6 injectors to pulse, other times only 5 injectors show up (and when that happens maybe half of them will pulse).

Right now I haven't been able to start the truck (although, I haven't given it much more than a couple crank attempts). It'll start with some ether sprayed into the intake, but it won't continue to run.

All the solenoids read about 11.8-12 ohms, there is continuity between the ECM and injector plug, and the output of the ECM is pulled to ground any time I pulse the injectors through the MT2500 (even when only 5 injectors show up).

An interesting note about the 5 injectors issue... the display reads:
Injector Balance Test
** Injector #1 **
....yadda yadda yadda....

But when only 5 respond to the MT2500 I see:
Injector Balance Test
** Injector #1 **&


Where '&' is actuall four horizontal bars.

I checked in all my manuals, and can't find any reference to what this might mean.

Right now my next plan of action is to pull the upper plenum, disconnect the fuel lines, and try to flush out the lines and clean the injectors. I also plan on disconnecting the return QD and removing the fuel filter to try to flush any crap out of the lines.


Anything else you all can think of to check?
 
Sounds like the fuel pump to me. My fullsize truck was doing the same thing, changed the pump and all was good.

I could see how that would fix most of the issue. Some of the people I was talking to today doubted that injectors would fire with < 50 PSI anyways.

The curious thing for me... is the disappearing #6 injector, and the funny symbol that comes up on my scanner.
 
It will start and run with 50psi.It will be hard to start or have driveability problems that sometimes set a check engine light usually a 171 and 174 combined.The proper way to check the system is to use isolation valves so you can pinpoint if its the pump or the injectors leaking down.Your system doesn't make it easy to do this so an injector balance test is the next best thing.If your system has already been upgraded to the new injection system and the pressure regulator hasn't been dumping Id do the pump.If it still has the poppet style system Id replace it with the upgraded unit.All you need to do is remove the throttle body and look down the hole.If you see injectors at the end of the hoses with wires to them you have the upgraded system.A tip is if you pinch off the return line partialy and the pressure goes up to specs or higher while running the pump is able to supply fuel when running.This doesnt mean the pump is good because key off it will drop if the valve in the pump is bad but it does tell you the injection system or regulator is the low pressure problem when running.
 
It will start and run with 50psi.It will be hard to start or have driveability problems that sometimes set a check engine light usually a 171 and 174 combined.

Good to know. Like I said, it's been having starting issues for some time now. It seems to have gotten worse recently and now sits condemned in my driveway until I can fix it.

I haven't seen any codes recently.

The proper way to check the system is to use isolation valves so you can pinpoint if its the pump or the injectors leaking down.

Yeah, and AlldataDIY also calls out some specialize injector tester and other apparatus to use during troubleshooting :( Right now all I have is my MT2500 and a fuel pressure gauge.

Your system doesn't make it easy to do this so an injector balance test is the next best thing.If your system has already been upgraded to the new injection system and the pressure regulator hasn't been dumping Id do the pump.If it still has the poppet style system Id replace it with the upgraded unit.All you need to do is remove the throttle body and look down the hole.If you see injectors at the end of the hoses with wires to them you have the upgraded system.

I just had the trottle body off yesterday to clean it up :doah: The upper intake plenum is pretty nasty looking on the inside, but I'll pull the throttle body again tomorrow and stick an inspection mirror in.

A tip is if you pinch off the return line partialy and the pressure goes up to specs or higher while running the pump is able to supply fuel when running.This doesnt mean the pump is good because key off it will drop if the valve in the pump is bad but it does tell you the injection system or regulator is the low pressure problem when running.

I'll have to try that tomorrow. I had conjectured that the FPR might be throwing a monkey wrench in.

When doing the balance test, the pump runs, but fuel pressure won't return to the max of 50 PSI until the system pressure drops below 40 PSI.





Thanks for all the input guys! I can handle a lot of things myself with a little bit of googling for some background info, but this issue is a little bit beyond my reach.
 
those vortec engines are super sensitive to low psi. you need the 60-66 like alldata showed.

i had one just like this before. put in a pump and perfect .

yes it would run at the lower but no real driving or major rpm from it.
 
Think about that filter. You said it had a lot of nasty crap in it. where did it come from?
If it were diesel, I would think you have a mold or other type growth problem in the fuel.
But since its gas, I'm thinking it might be some of the fuel pump.
Don't think I have ever torn a chevy intank pump apart, but I bet its plastic.

If the bearings are wearing out, it could let the impeller wear away at the housing and put a bunch of fine particles in the fuel.
Not all of which might have been stopped by the filter. Some of it may have made its way to the injectors.

If you change the pump, you might well consider changing the filter again.
 
I'm pretty sure its going to be a pressure problem. Like k30 says, they are sensitive to pressure.
This article mentions why.

http://www.mightyautoparts.com/pdf/articles/otl1298.pdf


The poppet type injectors use the fuel pressure to open the nozzle like some diesels do.
So if the pressure is too low, no fuel.
I suspect the reading you got was telling you that the fuel pressure was too low to make the test.

Plus, you might want to consider this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Important
Analysis of returned Multec II injectors indicate that terminal fretting corrosion may also be responsible for the conditions described in this bulletin. Since fretting corrosion (microscopic in nature) is nearly impossible to detect in the field, the following steps should be taken to ensure that fretting corrosion is not an issue before performing any additional diagnostics.


Fretting is a term used to describe a tiny rubbing motion that occurs between two surfaces. Fretting corrosion refers to a build up of insulating, oxidized debris that forms on electrical connections due to a fretting action at the contact points. Injector vibration, engine vibration, and electrical harness movement are contributors to the fretting motion.

Depending on how large the build-up of oxide is will determine how drastic the effect will be on the injector circuit. Worst case is a total loss of continuity in the connection resulting in P0200 (Injector Circuit Fault) and P0300 (Misfire) codes being set. If the oxides create a high resistance circuit, insufficient current will be available to properly open the injector, resulting in unstable fuel delivery and ultimately a P0300 DTC. High resistance in the circuit will not necessarily set a DTC P0200. Keep in mind that a connection with fretting corrosion is unstable. Since movement causes fretting, any vibration may create a condition where the connection varies from an open circuit, to a high resistance connection, to a good connection.


Important
Unless intermittent mis-fire due to fretting corrosion is suspected when servicing 3.1L and 3.4L engines, skip steps 1 through 4. Steps 1 through 4 may be performed at a future date when the upper intake is removed.


Disconnect one injector electrical connector.
Apply a small amount, about the size of a BB, of dielectric grease, P/N 12377900 (in Canada, P/N 10953529) to the female terminal. Be sure to cover both cavities.
Reconnect electrical connector to injector.
Repeat steps 1 through 4 for all remaining injectors.
Using the Tech 2®, perform an injector balance test. Use the Tech 2® to select each individual injector. Record the pressure drop of each injector on the repair order.>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Might be the reason for the disappearing injector.
 
Might be the reason for the disappearing injector.

I've read that bulletin when I first started digging into this issue.

The crazy thing about the "Missing" injector, is it still goes missing occaisonally when I have the injectors disconnected at the top of the intake manifold...
 
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