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Camaro overheating

I have a bit of an embarrassing story.

A few years ago, I bought a fan/shroud combo. It a nicer setup. I spent a lot of time fitting this to the radiator. No gaps, no rattles ect.

I realized after I did all of that, I cut the shroud too thin. I kept thinking the fans hung off the back. These fans were 'innies' instead of 'outies' meaning 3/4 of the fan was inside the shroud and barely came out past it. So when I put the fans back into the shroud I saw what I had done and was disgusted with myself. Well I set it aside until a day came by that I felt like perusing some remedy. I was so angry with myself that the easy fix eluded me - just using some spacers to make the fans be 'outies'...

Today was that day.

So, now I have some outie fans and a new shroud that I need to try to fit up.

4000 cfm. Gonna run those on my power supply to see what they pull in reality. Hopefully they don't overburden the alternator.

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JoshHefnerX said:
I have a bit of an embarrassing story.

A few years ago, I bought a fan/shroud combo. It a nicer setup. I spent a lot of time fitting this to the radiator. No gaps, no rattles ect.

I realized after I did all of that, I cut the shroud too thin. I kept thinking the fans hung off the back. These fans were 'innies' instead of 'outies' meaning 3/4 of the fan was inside the shroud and barely came out past it. So when I put the fans back into the shroud I saw what I had done and was disgusted with myself. Well I set it aside until a day came by that I felt like perusing some remedy. I was so angry with myself that the easy fix eluded me - just using some spacers to make the fans be 'outies'...

Today was that day.

So, now I have some outie fans and a new shroud that I need to try to fit up.

4000 cfm. Gonna run those on my power supply to see what they pull in reality. Hopefully they don't overburden the alternator.

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That would be rad if you can make them work!
 
With fans like that I usually like to upgrade to a 140A alternator and a larger charge wire, which maybe it has from the factory?

Keep in mind the fan wires have to be large enough too. I use a single 30 - 40A relay for each fan, with 10 awg wires for each fan.

It sounds like you are on track testing voltage drop if the alternator can't keep up.

I believe I have that exact shroud sitting in my attic. I bought that Derale 4000 cfm fan set for my regal, shroud didn't fit, but I liked the SPAL fans. So I made a new shroud that fit, and that one is sitting there.

FYI, those fans keep my 632 BBC (10.4L) cool, so if they are wired good, its not those fans.
 
folkenheath said:
With fans like that I usually like to upgrade to a 140A alternator and a larger charge wire, which maybe it has from the factory?

Keep in mind the fan wires have to be large enough too. I use a single 30 - 40A relay for each fan, with 10 awg wires for each fan.

It sounds like you are on track testing voltage drop if the alternator can't keep up.

I believe I have that exact shroud sitting in my attic. I bought that Derale 4000 cfm fan set for my regal, shroud didn't fit, but I liked the SPAL fans. So I made a new shroud that fit, and that one is sitting there.

FYI, those fans keep my 632 BBC (10.4L) cool, so if they are wired good, its not those fans.
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Thanks for the info! They are Derale. And weren't all that cheap which is why I was so pissed at myself. I just hooked them up to my power supply and did a little measuring.

Stock fans are about 25a for the pair
These are 32a for the pair

They're both 12". I did not capture the startup surge..

So it's not a huge increase, but it is a little bit. The factory is setup w/ a 3 relay system for a lo/hi setup. 2 40a relays, 1 35a. I've not looked at the wiring schematic in the last few days to see what's flowing where. But I'm kinda thinking it's not gonna be a huge pull on the system - and I may be able to get away w/ only re-wiring the last part of the circuit. We'll see. But I'd like to at least keep the triggers intact, I like the way they work as far as control.

These spals spin a bunch faster and move a bunch more air as a result.

At the upper 13v range the stocks spun around 2400 rpm. These do that at 8.5v... At 14v these were up around 3700 rpm. And the spal fans have a different design, more blades and the curious hockey stick on the end. The hockey stick I've not seen on spals site so I'm thinking they must have commissioned spal to do some change. Not sure the purpose but I may do some reading.

I'm hoping I'll have these in place tomorrow, and maybe know something..
 
Your "passing emissions" file has more advance than the "stock tune", but I don't see any real science in it. They mostly just copied the high octane table over into the low octance table, which is common for tuners trying to get more performance. This is the difference:

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Here's the difference in the high octane tables. They left it alone except for that one section, so there may have been some pinging there.

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Here's the differences in the idle timing, but to be honest, I don't know the math between the main spark tables, the idle tables, IAT, ECT, etc. They may all be straight add/subtract, which would have you idling at about 10BTDC (did you get a chance to check with a timing light?). I can only assume they saw reduced emissions or a better idle quality by pulling that much timing out. I also don't know what tells the ECU it's "at idle". Seems like you could do all of that with the main spark tables.

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They also turned off most of the O2 and EVAP DTCs so they won't report. That's probably the real key to passing emissions. :haha:
 
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Yeah, when I was logging, the timing was sitting at 5deg... total. Which matched the 'in drive'. When I bumped that up to 22 per the stock reference it did infact bump on my logging. So that was where it was reading. And improved. I may bump it more...

The rest of the ignition maps I didn't really care all that much about at this time - as it's running 'ok' there I suppose. Truth is, I've not been able to drive this in anger. At all.
These cars had a dumb thing from gm. GM put a restrictor in the clutch line, which gets plugged up. Causing the clutch pedal to stick down when you release the clutch after a shift. Over time it gets worse - so you have to drop the rpms lower and lower where the clutch will release properly. So I've never driven the car much above 2k rpm.

Putting a new clutch and hydraulics in it is like getting a 150hp bump!

And as for the emissions... yeah. When I bought this I changed the battery and reset the drive cycles. I drove it through the cycles many times and the evap wouldn't pass - but didn't throw a code either and I needed to get it through to get it registered. The o2 I never bothered to look at - so that may be the rears as the fronts are reading ok.

In AZ they don't tailpipe test 96 and newer (unless it's a diesel). So as long as the check engine light isn't on. They don't care. I've seen cars come in smoking out the tailpipe and pass emissions. It's a farce.
 
JoshHefnerX said:
Yeah, when I was logging, the timing was sitting at 5deg... total. Which matched the 'in drive'. When I bumped that up to 22 per the stock reference it did infact bump on my logging. So that was where it was reading. And improved. I may bump it more...

The rest of the ignition maps I didn't really care all that much about at this time - as it's running 'ok' there I suppose. Truth is, I've not been able to drive this in anger. At all.
These cars had a dumb thing from gm. GM put a restrictor in the clutch line, which gets plugged up. Causing the clutch pedal to stick down when you release the clutch after a shift. Over time it gets worse - so you have to drop the rpms lower and lower where the clutch will release properly. So I've never driven the car much above 2k rpm.

Putting a new clutch and hydraulics in it is like getting a 150hp bump!

And as for the emissions... yeah. When I bought this I changed the battery and reset the drive cycles. I drove it through the cycles many times and the evap wouldn't pass - but didn't throw a code either and I needed to get it through to get it registered. The o2 I never bothered to look at - so that may be the rears as the fronts are reading ok.

In AZ they don't tailpipe test 96 and newer (unless it's a diesel). So as long as the check engine light isn't on. They don't care. I've seen cars come in smoking out the tailpipe and pass emissions. It's a farce.
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In CA they still do tailpipe testing up to 1999.
Which is insane, my van was a 97, but now I got a 2000, same exact van, engine transmission...
2000 only gets the obd2 test.
But a couple of years ago they added the smoke test because lots of these newer vehicles weren't throwing a code while smoking a lot so there's a 3 second WOT and it should be clear by the 3 second mark or you fail.
They do the same with diesel too
 
Our diesels get a 'snap' test. Where you mash it several times and they have a camera that checks the opacity during the mash. And I have to take it every year, even though the gas cars are every 2...


So, the fans slid right in. However, I didn't realize the offset was opposite the factory fans. Factory was driver side low. This is driver side high.. So the upper rad hose is about 2" too short.


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So, I'm looking for experiences with custom hoses. This looks like if I could get it 2" longer it'd hit home (thats what she said anyway).

Any techniques that work better, products you've used w/ success, failures?

Saw a couple of places selling pipe pieces - that I could throw in the middle of the hose and I think it may work. Anyone used any of the flexible metal ones?

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JoshHefnerX said:
Our diesels get a 'snap' test. Where you mash it several times and they have a camera that checks the opacity during the mash. And I have to take it every year, even though the gas cars are every 2...


So, the fans slid right in. However, I didn't realize the offset was opposite the factory fans. Factory was driver side low. This is driver side high.. So the upper rad hose is about 2" too short.


View attachment 509105View attachment 509106




So, I'm looking for experiences with custom hoses. This looks like if I could get it 2" longer it'd hit home (thats what she said anyway).

Any techniques that work better, products you've used w/ success, failures?

Saw a couple of places selling pipe pieces - that I could throw in the middle of the hose and I think it may work. Anyone used any of the flexible metal ones?

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I have spliced with a piece of pipe, works fine
 
Can you weld aluminum? You could reverse the bends on the shroud to turn it inside out and reverse the fan positions. If the aluminum cracks, weld.
 
I do not have a tig, I do have a mig, and a spool gun, but haven't used it and dont think this is the right project to learn on. lol

However, I may have found a quick and cheap solution for the hose.
 
Well I found a short section of pipe locally and extended the hose. It wasn't quite wide enough, so gonna have to go get a bigger diameter Monday, but after tightening it a bunch it seems to be leak free for the moment.

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The Camaro's are a known butthole when it comes to burping the coolant. Probably because the radiator is so low.. I got most of the air out of it, but the initial leak on the extension pipe got on the belts and stared some squealing.

I did however get the fans in, and running on my power supply and they move some serious air. And they seem to suck some juice. Both of them together were pulling 50a, and one of the wires was a little undersized so I'm sure they'll pull (22a and 28a) 30ea. So that's going to push the factory setup I'm gonna have to do my own relays/wiring. And that throws some doubt on the alternator. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

folkenheath said:
Keep in mind the fan wires have to be large enough too. I use a single 30 - 40A relay for each fan, with 10 awg wires for each fan.
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You have the 12"? Have you ever measured the amp draw? Pulling through the core and the heat added a fair bit.

With the air burps I wasn't able to get a good test in, but should be able to tomorrow.
 
I think we may be into it. 110 outside, rose to 117 in my garage. So really really hot, me and the car both stewing in our own juices.

No a/c on, it stays low - 189. no problem, 14v on the fans hood up. but very stable.

A/C on It rose up to about 194. So I turned the voltage down to 12.8 and it rose up to about 205 more less held. closed the hood and it started climbing so put it at 13.5 and almost held. Turned up to 14v, and the temp immediately started dropping, until the circuit blew in my garage...

So pretty confident that 14v will do the job.. under upper 110's

Gonna start building the wiring harness for these and need to look into alternators. I'm pretty sure the factory is not going to be up to this job.

So, at this point I'm hopeful that this will do the job. Today was pretty extreme on the temps.

I am going tomorrow to get the larger diameter extension pipe as I've been fighting a leak on that one. But simple fix.
 
Well, I think I have the cooling figured. Got the fans wired up. Ran a test. 105 outside went up to 110 in the garage. The low speed would kick on, cool down and kick off. No problems, as it should.

Turned a/c on, fans go high-speed and the temps dropped further. Closed the hood, temps stable.

Bad news is.. The alternator is not cutting the mustard. Was 13.9 on cold start. 13.8 when warmed up. 13.6 w/ low-speed fan. 13.3 and dropping w/ high-speed fan Turned headlights on and dropped to 12.9 pretty quick.

That being said the temps were stable.

Gonna do some digging on alternators tomorrow. Maybe make a call or 2.
 
I don’t recall the alternators on these being terribly awesome. Let me know what you find out my 94 cruise is down to the 13.0 range quite a bit.
 
JoshHefnerX said:
Well, I think I have the cooling figured. Got the fans wired up. Ran a test. 105 outside went up to 110 in the garage. The low speed would kick on, cool down and kick off. No problems, as it should.

Turned a/c on, fans go high-speed and the temps dropped further. Closed the hood, temps stable.

Bad news is.. The alternator is not cutting the mustard. Was 13.9 on cold start. 13.8 when warmed up. 13.6 w/ low-speed fan. 13.3 and dropping w/ high-speed fan Turned headlights on and dropped to 12.9 pretty quick.

That being said the temps were stable.

Gonna do some digging on alternators tomorrow. Maybe make a call or 2.
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I use the powermaster catalog, if you know the clocking and spacing of your alternator. My distributor sells them.

Or just look the car up on rockauto and see if they have an upgraded version, 140A min.

You will need a larger charge cable.
 
The Camaro, at least the LS1 version of the alternator is a one off. The bolt spacing is the same as the trucks, but a smaller case. People do put in truck alts, but have to lose the back support bracket. But as stock goes they are "rated" as 105amp..
 
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