Can't Decide TBI - TPI - MPFI

[dave w]

Way too much time and patience for me.
At least your running a good computer, now you need the LS engine to match it.

I have about two weekends worth of time on the LS harness. I'd have less time on the harness if I wasn't so insistent on keeping the all the wire colors OEM.

My budget is limited so the LS engine is going to happen in the future. I purchased computer software (EFI Live), so I can flash the PCM myself from an Ebay auction for $655. I'm thinking once I get the Edelbrock MPFI / LS computer running, I might be able to re-coupe some of my expenses by being able to flash other LS1 PCM's? The LS engine is becoming very popular! In the future, I'm sure the LS engine will become more popular than the GEN 1 SBC?

Even with the $655 software, I'm still less than $1000 total on the project.

dave w

 

[dave w]

Just a quick update.
I received my EFI Live Flash Scan V2 software/hardware (Ebay auction item) on Friday afternoon. I had already downloaded the EFI Live software from the EFI Live website, I used the registration codes that came from the Ebay auction purchase to activate the software. The CD that came from the Ebay auction purchase had older versions of EFI Live, so it was a good idea to update to the latest version form the EFI Live website anyway.

I flashed the '0411 PCM on Saturday afternoon, (it's nice to know the EFI Live software/hardware I purchased on Ebay worked). I did not build a flash harness, I unplugged all the sensors from the harness (the harness is still on the test bench) which then had the harness working just like a flash harness.

The only thing I needed help figuring out (internet search) was changing the VIN in the '0411 PCM. The EFI Live Scan Tool software / Flash Scan V2 hardware can change VIN.

dave w

 

[dave w]

Another update.

I had a crank position reluctor ring Water Jet cut. The new reluctor ring has 8 teeth, so the cam position sensor and crank position sensor will be in sync. I think a few pictures will help out.

With the EFI Live software (Scan Tool) I get an RPM reading with my test bench fixture. I can also see the spark plug fire and the injector fire.

dave w

 

[Big Ray]

damn! You have a waterknife?!?!



coooooool!

 

[dave w]

damn! You have a waterknife?!?!



coooooool!

I just draw the stuff up. The guys on the other side of work have the Water Jet.

dave w

 

[Big Ray]

nice

we have one at work....the powers that be use to look the other way, but some azz clowns got carried away....one guy tried to make some custom wheels for his m/c...you can guess the rest...


I use to operate a cnc laser...'till I pissed off the beotch I worked for. Now I'm like a foreign operative, not even allowed near it...


fock 'em, it's been 1 1/2 years and the boys she put in there still can't run it right!

 

[Big Ray]

Glad I checked this thread.......my crate motor has that timing cover. I didn't know there was a hole in the bottom for the crank sensor....


Glad I caught it now...

 

[eagle mark]

If you could just figure out how to get an O2 reading we'd be set. Wait that is just a voltage...

 

[eagle mark]

I have about two weekends worth of time on the LS harness. I'd have less time on the harness if I wasn't so insistent on keeping the all the wire colors OEM.

My budget is limited so the LS engine is going to happen in the future. I purchased computer software (EFI Live), so I can flash the PCM myself from an Ebay auction for $655. I'm thinking once I get the Edelbrock MPFI / LS computer running, I might be able to re-coupe some of my expenses by being able to flash other LS1 PCM's? The LS engine is becoming very popular! In the future, I'm sure the LS engine will become more popular than the GEN 1 SBC?

Even with the $655 software, I'm still less than $1000 total on the project.

dave w

Once you buy EFI Live isn't there a per vehicle licence? Or is that workable?

 

[dave w]

Once you buy EFI Live isn't there a per vehicle licence? Or is that workable?

The version EFI Live I purchased (Flash Scan V2) will have two vehicle licenses (If you buy the Flash Scan V2 system new from EFI Live). I purchased a used version of EFI Live with only one vehicle license. Additional vehicle licenses can be purchased for $99 each.

The Flash Scan V2 system is more than just a PCM flashing program. Flash Scan V2 also has most, if not all the capabilities of a GM Tech2 scan tool. Flash Scan V2 will also Data Log, and has automatic VE tuning!!

I've only owned my Flash Scan V2 system for a week, but I'm a quick learner. I've been able to flash a PCM and monitor my test bench sensors with the Flash Scan V2 system. I've got tons more to learn about EFI Flash Scan V2, but I'll get there.

As a comparison, which is a better buy for an LSx PCM project - EFI Live Flash Scan V2 or an AutoXray TechScan 7000? I'd quickly say EFI Live Flash Scan V2!

dave w

 

[bronc3buster842001]

The version EFI Live I purchased (Flash Scan V2) will have two vehicle licenses (If you buy the Flash Scan V2 system new from EFI Live). I purchased a used version of EFI Live with only one vehicle license. Additional vehicle licenses can be purchased for $99 each.

The Flash Scan V2 system is more than just a PCM flashing program. Flash Scan V2 also has most, if not all the capabilities of a GM Tech2 scan tool. Flash Scan V2 will also Data Log, and has automatic VE tuning!!

I've only owned my Flash Scan V2 system for a week, but I'm a quick learner. I've been able to flash a PCM and monitor my test bench sensors with the Flash Scan V2 system. I've got tons more to learn about EFI Flash Scan V2, but I'll get there.

As a comparison, which is a better buy for an LSx PCM project - EFI Live Flash Scan V2 or an AutoXray TechScan 7000? I'd quickly say EFI Live Flash Scan V2!

dave w

Now I'm gona have to look into that. need to tune my DD. Need to kill the auto tranny functions since i swapped in the NV4500.

 

[eagle mark]

Dam, I was hoping you said the Auto Xray 7000 cause I got one. Course I got it to do all cars and it was half what you paid for the EFI Live. But I'll get there.

If I find my camara cable I could show a picture of my test bench with the Auto Xray 7000 tech scan, AutoProm and stuff...

 

[eagle mark]

Wonder if I can run a LONG cable on my wide band O2 sensor to a car in my garage? That would be interesting on the bench...

 

[dave w]

I've been thinking about the Crank Position Sensor for this project. Yes, I was able to make a test bench fixture work for a Crank Position Sensor, but now I will have make an actual engine run. One option is to use a stock Vortec reluctor wheel and a timing cover from EFI Connections http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=732

One option I've come up with is a harmonic balancer mounted reluctor wheel. The picture below is what I've drawn up in CAD. I think maybe I can use "off the shelf" crank position mounts?

Basically, I'm wanting to make crank trigger similar to what MSD offers. Bottom pic.

dave w

 

[eagle mark]

Why consider the inside option when the harmonic balencer option is already proven to work?

Plus the cover is expensive! Unless your looking for BLING!

 

[dave w]

Why consider the inside option when the harmonic balencer option is already proven to work?

Plus the cover is expensive! Unless your looking for BLING!

The 350 block I am using is pre-Vortec, so using the EFI Connection timing cover seems like the be$t option? I'm not real comfortable using the Vortec timing cover on an older SBC block.

I was thinking maybe if I designed an external mounting crank position sensor, it might be easier to adapt an LS computer to other older SBC's? I think upgrading an old school SBC TPI to LS Sequential / MAP / MAF (21st Century Technology) might be worth the time I invest to fab something? A 2 axis CNC Mill can do the machining of the billet steel I'll be using to make the reluctor ring out of. It might be as expensive to make the external mounting reluctor / crank position sensor bracket as using the EFI Connection timing cover?

pics below are from the internet. My inspiration to decide MPFI with '0411 PCM.
dave w

 

[eagle mark]

I would not have thought the CNC work would be near that cover ($300) maybe waterjet then machine it? I'm guessing from what I pay here in town for that type work but usually get 10 or so.

If the pictures you posted are a 411 PCM why still go with a distributor? the coil on each cylinder is better tech and the take offs are cheap on eBay.

Does the 411 need a cam sensor too?

 

[dave w]

I will need to finish the CAD drawings from 3D to 2D so I can start getting quotes. I will let the machine shops I request bids from to decide which machining process (water jet, Wire EDM, 2 Axis CNC) they will use and be able to meet the tolerances on the 2D drawings. My test fixture reluctor wheel was water jet cut, but the tolerance of the water jet required a second machining process on a lathe.

I also thought about a "press on" reluctor wheel on to the harmonic balancer, similar to the way a ring gear is affixed to a manual transmission flywheel. I was thinking Wire EDM for the "press on" reluctor wheel.

GM offered the Express Van with a Vortec L31 5.7 liter and used the 0411 PCM. The Express Van 0411 PCM L31 used the same distributor (with cam position sensor) as older Vortec engines. The Express Van 0411 PCM is programmed for a low resolution (4 segment) crank position sensor.

The 0411 PCM per coil ignition is high resolution (24 segment), and uses a cam position sensor.

What I've been thinking is: How to update an older SBC TPI to the 0411 PCM with "bolt on" parts.

dave w

 

[eagle mark]

Bolt on would be cool but a custom made part may be more profitable...

I have never worked with the vortec timing cover on an old SBC but what I read is they fit but prone to leaks? That's why EFIconnection makes the cover from billet aluminum as oposed to the plastic Vortec cover, correct? Maybe there is a way (custom part) to make the cover work reliably?

Just throwing idease out there for you...

Now I know a crank position sensor is more accurate but what if you used coil on cylinder and used the distributor with a custom made wheel for the crank position sensor?

I have a machinist here who I have worked with to design small cap EFI distributors for all engines, IH, Ford, Chrysler, AMC, etc...

 

[dave w]

Just throwing idease out there for you...

Now I know a crank position sensor is more accurate but what if you used coil on cylinder and used the distributor with a custom made wheel for the crank position sensor?

The distributor is half speed of the crankshaft speed. A distributor crank position is possible, but needs 8 segments. Likewise a cylinder per-coil would need 48 segments when mounted in the distributor.

I think 8 segments would be possible in a distributor with a large HEI cap diameter. I do wonder what the RPM limit would be with a distributor mounted crank position sensor would be. It would depend on how fast the sensor would respond. I'm guessing, but 8 segments at distributor speed, with HEI large cap diameter would limit at about 4000 RPM.

dave w