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car battery info thread (maintainance, reviving, maintaining)

original balzer

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Ok I have 2 nautalus (sp) marine deep cycle batteries That came with my motorhome. Both where completely dead. I dont know how old they are either.

Now in the past I have revived optima red tops by putting them on a low amp charge for about 24 hours.

Does anyone think these deep cycles will take a charge and be good batteries?
 
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my understanding is a "dead" battery has extensive crystal formation on the plates, you need to run high current though it to "melt" the cyrstals back into solution, rather than a low current overnight deal.
 
Yea thats what I have always herd, but they sell a battery "maintainer/reconditioner/charger that is like 2.5 amps. claims a slow long charge will revive a dead battery.

My experiance with salvaged optimas out of the junk yard is. A quick high amp charge will revive them, but they end up with very little reserve power. Whereas a long low amp charge usually brought them back to normal. I have done this with 15-20 optima red tops over the years.

I guess I can try it the worst that can happen is I boil them dry......
 
Just put them on the charger and filed them with water. or topped thm off I shoul say.

I know your supposed to use distilled water but I didnt oh well.
 
Other thoughts.

When you buy a new battery for a motorcycle you get an empty battery and the acid to put in it. They do it this way because they dont know how long it will sit on a shelf somewhere.

SO what would happen if you topped off an old battery with new acid?

Batteries are like a damn plauge around here it seams like something ALWAYS has a dead battery. Cheap batterys usually dont last more than about 1-2 years and GOOD batteries are expencive.

I am sick of buying new batteries charging them jumping them ect. I run optimas in all my daily drivers and never really have a problem with them.

I would almost be willing to buy the dash solar chargers for every vehicle but I dont know if or how well they work.

I have several things that dont get used often like my tool truck and backhoe and now the RV. I need to find a way to maintain the batteries in stuff.
 
Been researching it and hres some of the info I came up with.
Maybe some batteries can be saved and save us some money.

People kill more deep cycle batteries with poor charging practices, than die of old age!
Lead sulfation actually starts when you remove the charging voltage a full charged lead-acid battery. The lead sulfate crystals are converted back to lead during the normal charging cycle. The real question is, if all of the lead sulfate crystals are not turned back into lead, how long does it take before they become so hard that they can not be converted? The answer is that varies--it could be weeks or months and depends on a number of factors such as the quality of the lead, temperature, plate chemistry, porosity, Depth-of-Discharge (DoD), electrolyte stratification, and so on.
During the normal discharge process, lead and sulfur combine into soft lead sulfate crystals are formed in the pores and on the surfaces of the positive and negative plates inside a lead-acid battery. When a battery is left in a discharged condition, continually undercharged, or the electrolyte level is below the top of the plates or stratified, some of the soft lead sulfate re-crystallizes into hard lead sulfate. It cannot be reconverted during subsequent recharging. This creation of hard crystals is commonly called permanent or hard "sulfation". When it is present, the battery shows a higher voltage than it's true voltage; thus, fooling the voltage regulator into thinking that the battery is fully charged. This causes the charger to prematurely lower it's output voltage or current, leaving the battery undercharged. Sulfation accounts for approximately 85% of the lead-acid battery failures that are not used at least once per week. The longer sulfation occurs, the larger and harder the lead sulfate crystals become. The positive plates will be light brown and the negative plates will be dull, off white. These crystals lessen a battery's capacity and ability to be recharged. This is because deep cycle and some starting batteries are typically used for short periods, vacations, weekend trips, etc., and then are stored the rest of the year to slowly self-discharge. Starting batteries are normally used several times a month, so sulfation rarely becomes a problem unless they are undercharged or the plates are not covered with electrolyte.
As a consequence of parasitic load and natural self-discharge, permanent sulfation occurs as the lead-acid battery discharges while in long term storage. (Parasitic load is the constant electrical load present on a battery while it is installed in a vehicle even when the power is turned off. The load is from the continuous operation of appliances, such as a clock, security system, maintenance of radio station presets, etc.) While disconnecting the negative battery cable will eliminate the parasitic load, it has no effect on the natural self-discharge
16.2. How do I prevent permanent sulfation?
The best way to prevent sulfation is to keep a lead-acid battery fully charged because lead sulfate is not formed. This can be accomplished in three ways. Based on the battery type you are using, the best solution is to use an external charger in a well ventilated area that is capable of delivering a continuous, temperature compensated "float" charge at the battery manufacturer's recommended float or maintenance voltage for a fully charged battery. For 12-volt batteries, depending on the battery type, usually have fixed float voltages between 13.1 VDC and 13.9 VDC, measured at 80° F (26.7° C) with an accurate (.5% or better) digital voltmeter. [For a six-volt battery, measured voltages are one half of those for a 12-volt battery.] This can best be accomplished by continuously charging using a three-stage for AGM (Ca/Ca) or Gel Cell (Ca/Ca) VRLA batteries or four stage for wet (flooded) batteries, "smart" microprocessor controlled charger. If you already have a two-stage charger, then use a voltage-regulated "float" charger or battery "maintainer", set at the correct temperature compensated float voltage to "float" or maintain a fully charged battery. If you need Web addresses or telephone numbers of charger manufacturers, please see the Chargers and Float Chargers and Battery Maintainers sections of Battery Information Links List. A cheap, unregulated "trickle" or a manual two-stage charger can overcharge a battery and destroy it by drying out the electrolyte.
A second method is to periodically recharge the battery when the State-of-Charge drops to 80% or below. Maintaining a high State-of-Charge tends to prevent irreversible permanent sulfation. The frequency of recharging depends on the parasitic load, temperature, battery's condition, and battery type. Lower temperatures slow down electrochemical reactions and higher temperatures will significantly increase them. A battery stored at 95° F (35° C) will self-discharge twice as fast than one stored at 77° F (25° C). Standard (Sb/Sb) batteries have a very high self-discharge rate; whereas, AGM (Ca/Ca) and Gel Cell (Ca/Ca) VRLA batteries have very low rates. Please see Section 7.1 for more information on battery types.
There are trade-offs between the economics of continuous "float" charging, where self-discharge and resulting sulfation does not occur, and periodic charging with the increased potential for a shorter battery life due to permanent sulfation. If you decide to periodically recharge the batteries while in storage, increasing recharge frequency, disconnecting any parasitic load, or storing them in colder temperatures will impede the self-discharge and reduce the possibility for permanent sulfation, but will also reduce the total number of life cycles.
A third technique is to use a solar panel or wind or water generator designed to "float" charge batteries. This is a popular solution when AC power is unavailable for charging. The size of a solar panel or wind or water generator required will depend on the average amount of available natural resource, battery capacity and temperature. Normally a five watt or larger panel is required for an average car battery. A charge controller (voltage regulator) is required when the peak current output exceeds 1.5% of the amp hour capacity of the battery.
A desulfator may be used in conjunction with any of the above methods.
16.3. How do I recover sulfated batteries?
Here are some methods to try to recover permanently sulfated batteries:
16.3.1. Light Sulfation
Check the electrolyte levels and try one of the following three methods for removing light sulfation:

16.3.1.1. Equalize the battery. Please see Section 9.1.4. for more information on equalizing. 16.3.1.2. Apply a constant current at 2% of the battery's Reserve Capacity or 1% of the Amp Hour capacity rating for 48 to 120 hours, depending on the electrolyte temperature and capacity of the battery, at 14.4 VDC or more, depending on the battery type. Cycle (discharge to 50% and recharge) the battery a couple of times and test its capacity. You might have to increase the voltage in order to break down the hard lead sulfate crystals. If the battery gets above 125° F (51.7° C) then stop charging and allow the battery to cool before continuing.
16.3.1.3. Use a desulfator, pulse charger or desulfating mode on a battery charger. A list of some desulfator or pulse charger manufacturers is available on the Battery References Links List at http://www.batteryfaq.org. Please note that despite desulfator manufacturers' claims, some battery experts feel that desulfators or pulse chargers do not work any better at removing permanent or preventing sulfation than do constant voltage chargers.
16.3.2. Heavy Sulfation
Check the electrolyte levels and try one of the following two methods for removing heavy sulfation:
16.3.2.1. Replace the old electrolyte with distilled, deionized or demineralized water, let stand for one hour, apply a constant current at four amps at 13.8 VDC until there is no additional rise in specific gravity, remove the electrolyte, wash the sediment out, replace with fresh electrolyte (battery acid), and recharge. If the specific gravity exceeds 1.300, then remove the new electrolyte, wash the sediment out, and start over from the beginning with distilled water. You might have to increase the voltage in order to break down the hard lead sulfate crystals. If the battery gets above 125° F (51.7° C) then stop charging and allow the battery to cool down before continuing. Cycle (discharge to 50% and recharge) the battery a couple of times and test capacity. The sulfate crystals are more soluble in water than in electrolyte. As these crystals are dissolved, the sulfate is converted back into sulfuric acid and the specific gravity rises. This procedure will only work with some batteries.
 
I have a LOT of equipment that either only get used occasionally, or sits up for a season. Riding lawn mower, 8N Ford tractor, 4 wheeler, 100KW genset, etc.
I used to have to replace a battery or two each year minimum. The genset had a built in trickle charger, so it was usually ready to go, but the 8N would pretty much sit up all winter along with the mower and one or the other would usually not take a charge when summer rolled around.
Plus the camper would not be used during the summer, and when it came time to go to the swamp, the battery would usually be bad even though it had a built in charger.

Finally, when the trickle charger on the genset went bad, it came time to Take Steps.

I picked up a couple of three output marine charger/maintainers with the three stage computerized type charging system. Mounted them in a building, and ran permanent wiring in conduit to the various parking places. Most of the vehicles got a permanent screw lock marine type plug mounted on the outside somewhere hooked to the battery.
I made sure that when you hooked up the charger wire, the wire ran across the seat, and usually looped through the steering wheel, so it could not be driven off without unplugging the charger wire.

Now, when the 8N gets put to bed for the winter, with a full tank of ethanol free gas and a good dose of Sta-ble, I just plug in its charger wire, and the battery is kept fully charged all winter.

I don't have a link to the chargers I am using for that, but since the genset is critical, it got its own setup. A few months ago, I upgraded it and used the one I was using before for another setup.

This is the new charger I am using.
http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xc..._GUEST_16202__20_Amp_Intelligent_Charger.html

Its probably more than I need, but it has a couple of features I like.
For instance, it will charge all the different types of batteries via a selection on the front.
If I decide to change the lead acids for AGMs later on, I don't have to change the charger. Plus, both outputs are seperate from each other.
Even though the two batteries are hooked in series to get 24 Volts, the charger charges each one separately. One of the negative wires for one output is hooked to the positive wire of the other output, and they do not see each other.

In case the link does not work, just do a search for a Guest model 16202 charger.
Way more than is necessary, but the genset HAS to crank, and this will do the best job of maintaining the batteries.
Since I have done this for my equipment, I do not think I have had to replace a single battery.
And it is real nice to hop in the 1966 F600 boom truck that has been sitting up for two months and have a nice hot battery to crank it long enough to re-prime the carb.

J.
 
lead acid and AGM's use the same charge rate.. it was gels that required less.... thus, why gel's went the way of the dodo, and AGM's have taken their place...

you guys should see our charging room at the marina... well, actually it's a tractor trailer container... :haha:
 
I know that I gave my Dad a cheapie solar charger that he uses to maintain charge on his trailer batteries. He has used it for years, and it always ensures the two batteries on his old 5th wheel are charged. His deep cycle batteries haven't been replaced in about three years or so, and they are currently going into my new trailer for the deer hunt.

They won't charge a battery over a single day, but for maintaining a charge in vehicles and equipment that sit out there it would be worth the little investment.
 
I deffinatly need to do something, Its getting old every time I want to use something around here its dead.


OR out of gas!!

The big problem is this is a family ranch and everyone lives here. Its tough to get everyone to refuel, after they use something let alone plug things in.

While at work last night I was thinking about a small shed with a solar panel and or a wind generator, a battery bank, an inverter, and a charging system that can charge/maintain the vehicles that dont get used as often. AND plug them in for the winter. The idea would be to make it stand alone from the power company. I need to figure out how much power I would need to do it. I dont know much about electricity. I dont think the charger/maintainer would use much power but I KNOW block heaters use a lot. Thats the reason for the self suffient power shed. I do know plugging in the semi and the daily drivers raises the power bill quite a bit.

Any sugestions? or better yet donations?:haha:
 
Taggage, I've got two dead red tops right now from being deployed. The slow charge on them hasn't done jack.
 
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