Chevyin - Check in please...

[Greg72]

Do you have any opinions about the JL Audio W7 vs W6v2 series of subs??

I know that the W6v2 leverages heavily from the design of their flagship W7, but was curious if you've heard systems with either and had opinions about the merits of each.

W6v2 allows for a smaller recommended enclosure, and should be substantially cheaper than the W7. Not sure if the output of the W7 is such that a single W7 is equal to two W6's or not.

Just throwing ideas around.

 

[chevyin]

Do you have any opinions about the JL Audio W7 vs W6v2 series of subs??

I know that the W6v2 leverages heavily from the design of their flagship W7, but was curious if you've heard systems with either and had opinions about the merits of each.

W6v2 allows for a smaller recommended enclosure, and should be substantially cheaper than the W7. Not sure if the output of the W7 is such that a single W7 is equal to two W6's or not.

Just throwing ideas around.

I prefer the sound of a W6 to a W7 any day. I would take two W6's over one W7, if that's what you are contemplating. Install would be the key to actual output potential, but two W6's have more displacement potential than a single W7 of comparable size, so they should win out in output most times (two W6's vs one W7). But of course space may limit your options.

I have heard both, not extensively, but enough to confirm what seems to be the general concensus about the two... W7 wins in output, and is generally a very good driver, but the W6 simply sounds better. W6 sounds more... natural to me.

What exactly are your goals here? What are you looking for from your substage? SQ and accuracy? A street beater? etc... Are you intent on JL or are you interested in other suggestions? The more info you tell me, the better an answer I can give you.

edit: sorry its been a few days since Ive looked at the board

 

[Greg72]

Just kicking some ideas around for now.

My previous K5 system was pretty simple, but consisted of two ODKD tweeters mounted in the front footwells (actually IN the floor in sunken metal enclosures), and two 6" midbass drivers in each door. The subs were JL Audio 10" (10W3 IIRC) in custom, ported MDF enclosures in the rear side panels. Each speaker was powered by a bridged a/d/s PQ20....so about 200W per channel. I've since sold those sub enclosures to another CK5'er so I need to start over and come up with something else for bass.

It wasn't an SQ system, but with the tweeters down low and angled up the way they were it really imaged nicely, and with so much power to each speaker it had nice transient response. I'd call it more of a "rock-n-roll" system than an "audiophile" or "boom" system....really snappy and lively...fun to listen to, with some decent bass.

There are quite a few pics in my gallery link (see .sig) but the NorCal site has been down a lot lately, so it may not show you anything.

http://www.norcalbigdawgs.net/Gallery/album26


Unfortunately, with an open-top truck it's almost impossible to create ENOUGH bass...especially when competing with a rumbling BBC and TSL tires! This time around, I've been thinking about mounting the subs in a downward firing configuration to couple the energy to the body more effectively and of course to make them more "hidden" from curious fingers and thieves. I also was thinking of deep-sixing one of those a/d/s amps (though I really like them) and using a JL Audio 1000/1 for the subs. I like the bass control knob that they have, and from what I can tell they offer a lot of crossover/slope options. It might be time to go with an amp from this century! I've had good luck with the JL Audio subs in the past, so I thought I'd give them a place in my next system as well.

 

[chevyin]

Well, I just spent 2+ hours typing out a reply to you here, including some research and reference links etc, only to have the board decide to crap itself just long enough to eat my post when I hit the reply button. Im sorry, I'll try again when I get a chance Greg.

Long story short, JL = very good but expensive. If thats what you want, cool. I can also offer a few alternatives that may offer better bang-for-the-buck, if you are interested.

 

[Randy92782]

Not to jump into ya'lls conversation but i personally like my Infinity Reference subs. I had them in my blazer til i decided i'd start running with the top off and didn't wanna mess em up with the rain and all. They were 12" but i'm sure the smaller ones sound good too.

Just another option to throw out there. I'm not audio smart as in numbers and figures and such but i know what sounds good to me. You were talkin about a "rock and roll system" and when i do it again that's what i'm going for. I 've had my share of "rattle your head loose" stuff and can't say i need that anymore.

I haven't heard JL's since i got out of highschool in '01. I LOVED my brothers in his car.

For reference here's a pic. I need to visit here more often and maybe i can actually learn something about the terms the smart people use

 

[BadassBlaze]

Chevyin,
I've been researching subs for my stang, and I want a really good SQ sub with quite a bit of output. I was leaning towards a W7 until I read that you thought the W6 sounded better. I like the way JL's sound, so I've been pretty sold on buying one for myself, especially for a nice system in my Mustang. You said you had some other alternatives, what would be a nice alternative or slightly better than a W6?

 

[chevyin]

My impressions of W6's vs W7's seems to agree with the general concensus... while the W7 is an outstanding driver in many ways, the W6 just sounds more natural. W7 leans towards output (but can still sound very good), W6 leans towards SQ (but is no slouch in output either). So if my choice was one W7 or two W6's... the pair of W6's have more output potential AND (imo) will sound better dong it.

Okay, let me throw out a few alternatives. Again, not to diss the JL products... solid. But hey, its always good to shop around some too right? Anyway...

For a large driver, the CSS SDX15, 15" version only.

It has an xbl^2 motor topology (based of the famed Brahma motor, and similar to the motor in the RE XXX's I run) that gives it an extremely linear BL curve. This is called BL optimization, something I'll describe later. These speakers have extreme excursion (similar to W7, 30mm vs 34mm iirc) and extremely low distortion, good power handling... all for about 300 bucks. You could basically buy two of these for less than the price of one W7, and far exceed the performance. Very good bang for your buck here. Very similar performance to my xxx's, for about 60% of what I paid for mine. Friend of mine who designs speakers, and whom I trusted highly, says he feels this is one of the best all around subs on the market today.

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/CSS_SDX15/

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Stereo Integrity Magnum. (12" or 15" versions available)

Hand-made speaker by an up and coming American manufacturer. Their flag ship driver, and its been an extremely popular series for them. I very much respect the man who designs this line of speakers, his attention to detail in the motor design, and suspension softparts, is notorious. Simply put, I dont think I have ever seen a bad review of these speakers. And Ive seen alot of reviews of them, from extreme noobs to extreme veterans of the SQ lanes. Sound quality, ability to get stupid loud, take abuse like a donkey... they seem to be an outstanding and versatile speaker.

http://www.stereointegrity.com/mag.php

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JBL GTi series (10"-15"). Another BL optimized motor structure for extreme linearity. JBL has been in the business a long time, and they did their homework on this speaker line. Critically acclaimed, awards to back it up, the GTi series has alot going for it. Another sub capable of massive output while still retaining very (very) good SQ. Gary Biggs dominated the SQ world championships for several years using these speakers, must be pretty good.

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/pro...age=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=SUB&ser=GTI

Those are the 3 brands/models of subs Ive been sorta eye balling lately. All 3 very attractive drivers. All 3 give me a chubby. There are many other very good drivers out there today, such as Rainbow Vanadiums, Aura Sound drivers, Adire Brahma, Focal, etc. But if I had to chose new subs today, it would really be a dog fight between those 3 (for a daily-listener system).

As stated above, BL optimization. If you know this stuff already, bare with me for those who dont. BL is a measurement of a speaker's motor force. How strong it is. Most speakers' motor is its strongest when the cone is centered. The coil has the most copper inside the 'gap', thus the most electro-magnetic energy that is created. But, as the speaker begins to move, as the cone moves further and further, more and more of that copper leaves the gap, less electro-magtectic energy can be created... the speaker's "BL motor force" drops. Less force means the motor is controlling the speaker cone's movement less and less, at the cone's greatest excursion limits where it needs it most. This can and will lead to audible distortion.

There are 2 basic types of distortion (as it pertains to this discussion), signal distortion and speaker distortion. Signal distortion is any distortion presented into the signal chain. This can be by over driving a head unit or signal processor's outputs, clipping an amplifier, etc. This type of distortion is presented to the speaker as merely more of the same material, it reproduces it just like the rest of the music. If your components are configured correctly and not over driven, this type of distortion is generally non-audible.

The other type of distortion is speaker distortion. The distortion created by the speaker itself, if driven to excess. The vast majority of the speaker distortion created is 'BL distortion', what I mentioned above, from the loss of motor force as the cone excurts. What Im getting at is, BL optimized drivers present no audible BL distortion. None... that you'll ever hear. And when you consider BL distortion accounts for almost all distortion a speaker causes, this means a speaker capable of accounting for virtually no audible distortion of its own (assuming it stays within its working perameters).

BL optimized drivers started with the JL W7, it was the first. JL managed this feat by utilizing many shrewd design techniques to get the motor excursion extremely linear.

A couple years later a man named Dan Wiggins invented xbl^2, a BL optimization that by many accounts does the exact same thing as JL's design, only in a more simple fashion. Here's a good description I have of the idea behind the design I got somewhere over the past cpl years... "XBL™ - XBL is our patented motor linearity solution (US Patent 7,039,213). XBL combines multiple magnetic gaps with one or more voice coils to yield the flattest, most extended BL curve of any motor design. This proven technology is usable in any size transducer, and will provide measurable increases in output with a simultaneous reduction in distortion."

If you are interested in the topic, here is a tech paper written by Dan Wiggins about the new technology... http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf

Split-gap, dual-gap, xbl^2, the W7 motor topology... these all accomplish a similar goal, virtually NO audible speaker distortion. To such an extent that some people find they prefer the sound of a traditional motor design, with its included BL distortion. Its been said humans are so use to hearing this distortion in speakers, that when its not there, some people tend to think the sound is ... 'lacking', and thus missing something that should be there. All its lacking is distortion. But enough people say this (I like the sound myself, eventhough I prefer a W6 to a W7) that I recommend trying to hear one of these types of designs before necessarily settling on one. I account for this much like people who prefer tube amps for their 'warmth'... that's nothing more than even-order harmonic distortion added by the tubes... but people like it. *shrug*

The JBL GTi's and JL W7's are the most likely you'll find locally to audition. Although I bet the JL salesman will have no clue what you are talking about, but that's another story. lol

Hope this helps guys, had to just throw together some thoughts this time around.

 

[Greg72]

Thanks for typing all that (TWICE!)....good info!

Auditions of any type are going to be tough in my neck of the woods, so I'll have to check out some decent shops when I'm traveling West in the coming months.


One last thought on the W6...... 13" version or 12" version??? It's generally a tradeoff of surface area vs. accuracy, but with JL Audio I'd suspect they did a pretty good job either way. If it's just a question of how many cubes they need to work, I'll have to break out the measuring tape and see if the 13's can be made to fit somehow....

 

[chevyin]

One last thought on the W6...... 13" version or 12" version??? It's generally a tradeoff of surface area vs. accuracy...

That's a myth Greg. At least, for the most part.

People tend to think small diameter coned subs having tighter, quicker bass response. While larger subs tend to have slower, sloppy bass. This is not the case.

The average subwoofer motor these days is anywhere from 2 to 4 horsepower. The difference in cone weight from the average 10 or 12" to the avergae 15 or 18" cone, is measured in ounces. If you guys realize how much energy is in 2 to 4 hp, you'll see that a few ouces difference cone difference one way or another isn't going to make a substantial difference on performance.

Larger subs tend to be considered sloppy for a few reasons. Frequency response is usually the culprit. People tend to think a large cone generates so much more low end, but that this low end bass is less controlled. Frequency response is dictated MUCH more by the enclosure size/type/alignment than it is by the speaker cone diameter. I build a box for an 18" subwoofer that extends well up into the midbass region, and does poorly at the lowest octaves. A function of the box, not the cone diameter.

Subbass that overpowers the front stage speakers (vocals) also tends to sound 'sloppy' just because there is so much of it. People today are going with larger and larger sub stages, while the front stage speakers largely remain the same. So often Ive seen a single pair of 5-1/4 or 6.5" comps trying their futile best to keep up with a substage consisting of multiple high-powered subwoofers. These types of setups are all too common these days, with their massively over powering bass that sounds bad, and many times is blamed on "those darn 15" cones".

Also consider this, the harder a subwoofer has to work, the more distortion it outputs. Lets say you require your subwoofer to be playing at 125db, just for example. The larger the sub (and its displacement potential), the less effort it has to put into reaching that output level. A single 8" sub system might have to work at 80% of its potential to reach this db threshhold, while an 18" subwoofer system is barely exurting much effort to reach this output level. Remember what I said in my previous post, the further a speaker cone must move, the greater is distortion level will be (non BL-optimized speakers). So the larger coned speaker will actually need to move its cone less in order to reach the same output level as its smaller coned counterpart. What's this mean? The larger coned sub is actually capable of reproducing a given output level with LESS distortion than its small brother coned speakers would.

Many successful SQ competitors have utilized large coned subs, running at very low levels for extreme low distortion output levels. generally I recommend sizing your subs according to what you want (output wise), blending to what you have (trying to blend the output of 18" subs with that of 5.25" mids just doesn't work too well), space contraints (sometimes an array of small speakers will fit where one larger one will not), and of course budget.

Hope that helps, feel like Im rambling abit here.

 

[chevyin]

One last thing to mention on 'fast' bass response versus 'slow' bass response. Frequencies are nothing more than cycles per second. For a speaker to reproduce a 50hz note, it moves its cone in and out 50 times per second. So to those people who say a smaller speaker plays a bass note 'faster' while a larger coned sub plays it 'slower' my only response is if 1 of the speakers is playing 'faster' than the other, they simply are not playing the same frequency.

edit: To answer your question, Id go with the 13" version if you can fit it. If its too much in terms of output, you can always turn it down (gaining 'headroom' on your amp and lessening distortion even more)... but too small of a system cannot be turned up (beyond its limits).

 

[Greg72]

One last thing to mention on 'fast' bass response versus 'slow' bass response. Frequencies are nothing more than cycles per second. For a speaker to reproduce a 50hz note, it moves its cone in and out 50 times per second. So to those people who say a smaller speaker plays a bass note 'faster' while a larger coned sub plays it 'slower' my only response is if 1 of the speakers is playing 'faster' than the other, they simply are not playing the same frequency.

edit: To answer your question, Id go with the 13" version if you can fit it. If its too much in terms of output, you can always turn it down (gaining 'headroom' on your amp and lessening distortion even more)... but too small of a system cannot be turned up (beyond its limits).

I believe a lot of what people call "slowness" or "muddiness" is more a function of the speaker not accurately replaying the waveform it's presented with....either an inability to accelerate quickly enough at the beginning of the wave, or overshooting the top of the waveform before returning back. My view had always been that there are only two things that control speaker motion....mechanical damping (the speakers design itself, and the enclosure it resides in) and electrical damping (the control provided by the amp that drives it)...

Over time I've concluded that the more clean power you can feed a sub, the more "lively" it will sound. The strength of the amp will force the speaker to track to the musical waveform more accurately than a wimpy amp ever could.

Thanks for the info....I'll see if I can find the 1.625 cubes that the 13" want vs the 1.25 for the 12".





ps. What's the latest on your 1st Gen? It seems like a while since I've seen any new build photos?

 

[chevyin]

I believe a lot of what people call "slowness" or "muddiness" is more a function of the speaker not accurately replaying the waveform it's presented with....either an inability to accelerate quickly enough at the beginning of the wave, or overshooting the top of the waveform before returning back. My view had always been that there are only two things that control speaker motion....mechanical damping (the speakers design itself, and the enclosure it resides in) and electrical damping (the control provided by the amp that drives it)...

Over time I've concluded that the more clean power you can feed a sub, the more "lively" it will sound. The strength of the amp will force the speaker to track to the musical waveform more accurately than a wimpy amp ever could.

Thanks for the info....I'll see if I can find the 1.625 cubes that the 13" want vs the 1.25 for the 12".





ps. What's the latest on your 1st Gen? It seems like a while since I've seen any new build photos?

Music is transient (rapidly changing frequency, intensity, etc). The more clean power you have in reserve, the better your system can cope with these transient demands on it. Its popular in SQ systems today to run 'headroom', runa larger than necessary amplifier, adjusting the gains artificially low to limit continuous output. This decreases the distortion threshhold, and give the system some 'headroom' to play with for transient peaks in the music, while not requiring the amplifier to be driven into clipping (even if very briefly) to reproduce the note. Your stereo's inability to handle this rapid response can also be a fial;ing of your electrical/charging system, if done inadequately. But that's another story for another day.

Glad to help out, hopefully I have. The first gen... is sitting. Too many projects, I keep bouncing around between them. Lately Ive been working on upgrading the stereo in my daily driver (finally going big in it) and trying to get the hummer I bought whipped back into shape. But yeah, I want and need to get back on the Blazer, she looks so lonely just sitting there.

Cheers man.

 

[BadassBlaze]

chevyin, what do you think about sound splinter drivers?