CK5
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crawl ratio vs stopping ability

The point with the hose was it does not 'deny' the laws of physics to accelerate fluid. If you want to be anal about it, when you put your thumb over the end of a hose you lose a lot of kinetic energy to turbulance, and a bit more due to the added friction. This is the same 'heat loss' you seem stuck on.

I think you are getting hung up because you are looking at a torque converter as the same as a clutch...they are two very different beast. Every website I have looked at has agreed on multiplying torque...I can't seem to find one that agrees with you.

Maybe you are the only one on the entire earth that has this knowledge?
 
84k5 said:
Maybe you are ht eonly one on the entire earth that has this knowledge?
That is not a valid response to this discussion. I have stated my theory and the facts that I have based it on. I would really like to know the answer to this once and for all. I'd prefer the answer on a scientific backround though, not just, "That's the way it is."
 
Sure it is. You are presenting something as true when it is clearly not. I do not fully understand the subject, but what I am saying is correct. It is a pretty complex subject, so unless someone very smart reads this, we will just have to accept it. You don't have a single source for your theory, except you heard mj say it.
 
Ahh, Fluid Dynamics, what a wonderful subject.

Lets State what we do know:
1. We do know that Auto trannies do multiply torque on some level.
2. We also do agree with the statement that energy is neither created or destroyed, only that energy is always converted into another form (heat, light, motion, etc).

What everyone has said is basically correct- Yes, there is some loss, but not all of the energy is lost through heat.

From Lake Superior Converters;
The ability of the torque converter to multiply torque can be understood by applying "Newton's Law of Physics" - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In the converter, the impeller, the turbine, and the reactor (stator) are points of action and reaction with respect to fluid flow. During the period of torque multiplication, the reaction of the stationary reactor (stator) blades to the fluid is the same direction as the impeller rotation. In accordance with "Newton's Law", the reactor (stator) torque (A) plus the impeller torque (B) equals the turbine torque (C).

A fluid coupling cannot increase torque because there are only two points of action and reaction - the impeller and the turbine - which results only in an equal and opposite reaction. Introduction of the third action (stator) multiplies the reactive force.



(with some plagerism)

The curved turbine blades absorb energy from the fluid until the force of the fluid is great enough to overcome the turbine's resistance to motion (transmission input). The impeller and the turbine are acting as a fluid coupling at this point, and have no torque multiplication effect. At this point, the turbine vanes have reversed the fluid flow.

During torque multiplication, vortex flow actually moves the fluid through the impeller to the turbine, to the reactor, and back through the impeller. It is the acceleration of the vortex movement that results in torque multiplication. Since the vortex flow is greatest at stall condition, the greatest torque boost takes place at this time. As the speed ratio increase, the vortex flow decreases, causing torque multiplication to reduce gradually at about 90% speed ratio, or when the turbine speed is about 9/10 of impeller speed, at this point, there is no longer any torque multiplication. The rotary flow of the fluid is the predominant influence and the converter enters a coupling phase.

In Short, Torque multiplication is GREATEST as soon as the impeller tries to move. As soon as the Engine matches the turbine, torque multiplication ceases. So as long as your on the throttle, and the engine RPMS are increasing, you will be having multiplcation, until the impeller reaches the same speed.
 
84_Chevy_K10 said:
That is not a valid response to this discussion. I have stated my theory and the facts that I have based it on. I would really like to know the answer to this once and for all. I'd prefer the answer on a scientific backround though, not just, "That's the way it is."

A torque converter is similar to a hydraulic planetary gear set at times (not at stall). The torque number of two is taken into account due to constant slippage (IE the engine moves steadily twice the revolutions for a given distance). Ever seen an impact wrench's guts? That is a single action centrificul (sp) torque converter of sorts. 90PSI cannot actually remove a lug with 150+ lb/ft of torque. It is the movement of a flywheel and the steady (although slipping) connection of a weight with the shaft.

Science:
If said converter did not "double" the torque than an auto would not be able to tow up hill. This would be similar to trying to start in 2nd gear with no clutch to slip on a 4 speed. Well auto's work up hill. They move roughly twice what the numbers show with a 1:1 multiplication.

The ultimate reasoning- the broken driveline. If an auto never multiplied torqe than the numbers show an axle shaft could never break with 4.10 gears.

I have made my point. I can spend a few hours getting you the exact figures but I will likely get some crappy "in my experience I have never" response.




Ryan, yes there is a point where too low can happen. I went to a 4:1 with my crawl and was worried at first about stopping. I could go for a Klune then a 205 just for that extra grunt and more choices. Therobzilla has to shove his TH350 into nuetral to stop sometimes (athough he is running a modified converter -> 650 stall).
 
az-k5 said:
A torque converter is similar to a hydraulic planetary gear set at times (not at stall).

This is the most straight forward / accurate explanation.

But this discussion is just a spin-off of the "long enduring" argument of manual versus automatic. Either side will never get resolution..... There are times where an auto has advantages / and times when a manual has the better manners. Just gotta choose your girl and dance w/ her all night!:grin:

But to answer the original post ?... Yes you can build so much crawl ratio that you can't stop. So what...?!? you're crawlin' - slip in in "N"... or don't always use your lowest gear. :waytogo:

Marv
 
Jeez, go to bed and look what happens!

If I had said "It must be true, I read it on the Internet" then I can understand your doubting my statement.

The way it was explained to me is that the angle of the stator's vanes cause the fluid to exert more leverage on the trans input shaft. The amount of max multiplication is dependent on the angle of the stator's vanes. They effectively trade fluid velocity for fluid pressure (Conservation of Energy), however due to friction within the fluid (Fluid Shear) some of the energy is lost as heat. Fluid Shear is a direct result of torque multiplication and it dimmishes as the convertor approach's it stall speed. The 2-5% RPM drop across a converter when 'stalled' is this Fluid Shear still making it's presense known.

Several of the Yota guys I know with Marlin's say they can not stop the truck at idle while in silly low. On the other hand, if you're in silly low you're not going very fast. You should have the time to pull it out of gear or turn the engine off.
 
My plan is to look into a reverse manual valvebody on the 700R4. Then N and 1st are right next to each other.
 
I think the ultra low gearing is why most monster trucks use pinion mounted disc brakes--they are said to be 25 times more efficient there than at the wheels,due to the "overdrive" effect of the rear end gears making it much more effective.... I hardly ever use 4 "LOW" when I plow,its too hard to stop the truck in time--many times it overpowers the brakes and you end up hitting something costly(like your other truck!!)--unless its very wet heavy snow I use only 4 HI--it also seems to spin too easily in 4 low,almost too much torque..

I saw a comparison of automatics VS manuals once,they tried pulling a train car with a ford truck with a 4 speed--the trucks clutch was smoking and it barely moved the train,another identical truck with a C-6 pulled it away,a little slow,but it did it--it proved there was more tourqe available with a torque converter than a manual tranny with a "granny" gear--even though driving normal on the street a manual tranny makes a vehicle "seem" more powerful---I dont fully understand how the stator works by speeding up fluid against what amounts to 2 fancy fan blades--but I guess it works!!--Personally,I think the guy who invented the automatic probably wasnt born on this planet--or he had real good LSD or something--whoever it was is a genius,thats for sure!!!..
 
Once again, I love these discussions.

  1. This is my pure experience, not out of your ass statements, I drive it and it know what it does.
  2. No fancy smanchy words, I'm not an Engineer like other posting on this thread.
  3. My blazer has a 350 TPI for a motor, I run a TH350 trans w/ a custom 500 RPM stall coverter. I run a Doubler w/ 4:10 gears in the axles.
  4. NOTE: I run disc brakes front and rear!
  5. You can barely stop my blazer when idling it factory set a 650 RPM's, and that is with discs in the front and rear, and the doubler in 4 double low. In 2wd double low, it's just as hard.
  6. I have ripped the rear brake housing ears totally off the 12 bolt housing and sheared grade 9 bolts off the housing. This while being in 4 double low, at around 700 RPM.
You are going to have a very hard time stopping it!!!!! I have no reason to bull$hit you. I can stand on the brakes and if it doing much more than 750/800 RPM, you better find the N lever on the trans real quick or you won't be stopping in my rig. Ask anyone that has wheeled with me.

So, bottom line in, you are going to have a very hard time stopping, I don't care what anyone says, I talking from real world experience.......
 
Tim,

There is info all over the web on torque converters. It's better to point you to an existing article than to rehash. Read this: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter.htm

There is a net loss of power, but the torque is increased. This agrees with conservation of energy because the output speed is slower than the engine speed.

I think the confusion arises because the torque converter and clutch reside in the same location (between the engine and transmission), but the jobs are entirely different. An auto still has clutches, but they are internal, where the manual has an external clutch. A torque converter with "slip" is not the same as a slipping clutch.

2x is only a rough factor. The actual number depends on the torque converter construction
 
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