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Crossing streams in trucks

Hey Rat, I beleive Suburbanite drives a lifted Low-emissions Toyota Prius hybrid on dirt friendly BFG 33X22.50 gentle terrains. The exhaust has also been modified to dispense flowers and seeds for other small shrubs. The headlights are specially designed low light lenses to prevent blinding baby squirrels. The interior is 100 percent hemp, and biodegradable. The entire car is painted with special natural paint, which is actually edible to many smaller forest species. The spare tire is made of sunflower seeds bonded together with super sticky honey. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
 
If having a gas guzzler is wrong or environmentally irresponsible, then it is also wrong to live any further from your job than you have to. If I get 12mpg and drive 12 miles to work, don't I burn the same gas as a Honda-owner who gets 40mpg and lives 40 miles away?

Travel should also be "immoral" or "irresponsible because of all the gas you burn and pollution you make to drive somewhere. If you fly, does that jet really use less fuel per person?

To drive an electric just means that you move the pollution. Now the powerplants are polluting more and using more resources to give you all the electric you need for your car. Plus the batteries tend the make the vehicle to heavy to be extremely efficient anyway. And if we mass-produce electric or hybrid cars, how do we recycle the batteries? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If we care about emissions and renewability of resources, shouldn't we run our cars on Ethanol? You can grow more corn to make more alcohol and the emissions are almost nothing compared to gasoline, even without a catalytic band-aid.
 
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I have no investment in the forestry sector, just spent some time at graduate school learning advanced forest management and ecology .. part of which includes managing public use .. you think they don't think about these things? Come on ..

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I would rather see 1000 acres clear cut than paved over.

I have no beef with the timber industry...we all use wood, we'd all be hypocrites to complain.

I do believe however, that you have been misled. Construction practices for forest roads are not "bad", but they are most certainly environmentally damaging. Look at the construction: long ditches on the side of the road, funneling all water running down the hill into single points of passage for the water. They build velocity, and focus erosion on one specific area, which also increases sedimentation. If you don't think this is a problem, why do we use rain spouts on our houses that force water away from the foundation of our houses, and why do we have flooding problems when huge patches of land are covered in asphalt?

Look at the road bank after the cat comes through and makes the 8-20 foot cut. Do they use anything on the bank to stabilize it? Of course not. Have you ever seen 100 yard lengths of logging roads that have sluffed (sank) 2 feet? Ever seen holes just appear near road edges above streams? Noticed that after a couple of years of no use, logging roads are impassable because the hillside has given way in places, or the drainage system has collapsed, and the road has disappeared in gulleys?

I'm not blaming this on clearcutting. But I'm also not misled...the fact is, greed is what drives logging, not enjoyment of the land.
 
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Hey Suburbanite, what kind of rig do you have, where do you wheel, and what mods have you done? Your profile is pretty blank.

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I have a '95 K2500 Suburban that's pretty much stock & will mostly stay that way with the exception of upgraded ignition & exhaust systems, & perhaps slightly taller (but narrower) tires.

Don't "wheel" it at all, unless driving it to trailheads is considered 'wheeling'. The nearest I come to 'wheeling' is on my ATB (All Terrain Bicycle, AKA MTB) on abandoned or closed (to motorized vehicles) trails. In reference to one of the responses, I guess that makes me truuuully superior /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif.
 
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Man this a fun! Nothing like hippie bashing... /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

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Since your hair is longer than mine (unless you're bald) I think that makes you the hippie! You flower child you ... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Hey! Just cause someone has long hair, doesn't make 'em a hippie! /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Actually, I shave my head with my trusty Mach 3 every morning. Low maintenance! Hippies don't need long hair to fit in any more. Lots of Greenpeacers and Earth Firsters wear suits now. It's not what you look like, it's "hippie is as hippie does". Each to their own I guess, but that doesn't mean I have to fall for all of the crap hippies and liberals try to feed us. For more insight into where I come from, and why liberals are ruining it for all of us, check out G. Gordon Liddy's new book, "When I Was A Kid, This Was A Free Country". I have to admit, you started a pretty entertaining thread. I check it twice a day, just to see the sparks. Thanks!
 
I guess the reason I asked Suburbanite is because from your posts it seems that you have only been exposed to some of the worst that a minority has to offer in the off roading world. You make several observations in your posts including, scarring left by off roaders and going "up and over" in vertical hill climbs (presumably off trails). This doesn't describe the vast majority of off roaders, especially the ones I've dealt with over the years. Most of the folks who wheel fall into a few general categories. Mudders - These folks love to play in deep mud. Most mudders usually have to find an off road park or private land to create the kind of mud that fits the bill. You generally don't see them on BLM or National Forest lands since their play places usually take some human creation in order to satisfy. Rock Crawlers - These wheelers head for places like the Rubicon, and other designated popular runs, that are used over and over by rock crawlers and generally maintained by the same. The location has been run for many years and the impact long felt and mitigated. Desert Runners - These guys have a strong potential for damaging the environment. But, in my contact with them, they usually run through sponsored and designated race sites, or in areas that already have trails and roads to drive on. Explorers - This is my category. Another type that can potentially damage the environment. But, speaking for myself and all those I've run across, we stay on designated trails and usually access the more remote areas by driving on trails in, and then hiking farther on foot. I do my exploring in the Nevada desert and in the areas I go, you don't see too many Sierra Club, or other preservationists crying rivers over a few four wheelers. The mining companies are doing far more damage then we ever could. Sand Runners - Places like Pismo and other parks cater to these wheelers and their destinations are once again condoned, maintained, and designated for the specific use that they receive.

There are many other types to be sure. But, the common thing I find in most of us is the respect for the environment tempered with the desire to enjoy our chosen recreation/hobby. Not everyone wants to drive to the trailhead and mountain bike a few miles before going home. Some of us go out for days and weeks at a time into wilderness areas. In summation, I don't think it fair to paint all off roaders with the same brush. As in society in general, it is usually the small visual minority that gives any group a black eye. It seems from your description that you really aren't an off roader. More like someone who uses their Suburban to get to a trailhead to do other forms of recreation. This site is a tremendous resource for technical help on Burbs and Blazers. But, it is also a site frequented mostly by those who wrench on, modify, improve, and rebuild their rigs for the express purpose of using them as I described above. You probably won't get too much sympathy for tarring off roaders as environmentally unfriendly. Just my .02...
 
I am pretty much in agreement with Rat and I definately enjoy places like Moab but not just for wheelin although that is the majority of the trips I take down there. I have Mountain Biked Slickrock, Climbed, Rafted and Hiked. My favorite is wheelin but it is expensive, and time consuming to make a vehicle capable enough to wheel every time. I enjoy engineering my rig to meet the challenge of an obstacle. An obstacle on a Mountain Bike, on a Raft or climbing is mostly physical so I don't like that as much. If I was on a mountain bike on slickrock trail greenies would think I was one of them until they got to the parking lot and saw my truck, then they would shun me. I think that is how a lot of this controversy works. We all dislike eachother because of a stereotype. I don't dislike a greeny unless he is out on a trail during jeep safari handing out pamphlets and trying (unsuccessfully) to discourage wheelers. Fact is we won't change their mind and they won't change ours. So why have the argument.
 
Because arguing is fun and stimulates the mind. Maybe one day we will all see eachother on a trail, and it will be an interesting day indeed. Arguing is sort of like verbal boxing
 
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damn i thought i hated people.

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I don't hate anybody. I just have low patience for opinion different than mine. It's a personal problem. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
A couple of things to consider......

While trying to go over the same obstacle the guy with the 38" Boggers will most likely cause less damage than a stock vehicle. I know from experience that my 38" TSL's and lockers front and rear tear up less ground than somebody with 31" all-terrains and open diffs when climbing hills on our local trails.

We are also talking about two different types of environmental impact.....one is pollution from chemicals and the other is errosion. I have a hard time believing a washed out hill on a trail or a few vehicles crossing a stream causes as much environmental impact as the thousands of cars on the freeway everyday dripping coolant and oil which eventually get washed into the streams and lakes.

I recently had a lady try to tell me how bad the fourwheelers were for tearing up nature. She didn't have much to say after I pointed out the fact that they bulldozed about 50 acres of woods to put in the subdivision where she lives and the 500 ft. wide section they bulldozed to make the 4-lane highway she drives to work........
 
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While trying to go over the same obstacle the guy with the 38" Boggers will most likely cause less damage than a stock vehicle.

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I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. Where we go hunting there is one fairly decent obstacle. A creek crossing (imagine that) with a pretty steep dirt bank on the one side. Most of the people try going up it first in two wheel drive (spinning tires all the time) then back down, and do the same thing in 4wd, but of course making it after getting a better start. Those of us that have been there for years, and have tried to make the exit less steep, know that even with 10.5" or less AT tires, if you are in 4lo, you can idle right up the bank. No spinning tires, no broken parts.

Funny thing is, this creek crossing exists because the large concrete bridge (50-75' or so) was hit by a huge flood caused by a plugged creek channel, which took out the road on either end, and now, due to salmon concerns, can't be fixed. So all the work (and damage) done to the stream by constructing the bridge in the first place, was for nothing, and people are back to fording the stream in vehicles. Go figure.

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didn't have much to say after I pointed out the fact that they bulldozed about 50 acres of woods to put in the subdivision where she lives

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It's amazing how ignorant *all* of us can be of this fact, when we lose a favorite or local spot to developement. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
I don't think much of liberals either. Of any sort! I freely & equally apply the name to anyone I consider 'out there' in their thinking (or lack thereof). Most seem to be stricken with a severe case of, what I like to call, H.U.T.A. syndrome (Heads Up Their A**). The singular form of which is H.U.Y.A. (my advance apologies to all the Special Forces folks).

As for some of the comments concerning all the destruction being done by various commercial entreprises, & how off-roading destruction pales in comparison (to paraphrase), I think that the 'commercial' destruction is offset (somewhat) by the 'return'. What kind of 'return' does off-roading destruction offer to society as a whole? None, that I can see.

I frequent this site mainly bc my nephew 'wheels'. Mostly on private or undeveloped land. I don't have any problem with the latter bc much of the land in my area WILL eventually be developed -- it's just a matter of time (very short, at the rate construction is going on around here!). His '93 K1500 Z71 Sportside has a 4" Rancho SL & 3" Trailmaster BL both of which I helped install. Truck currently has 35" tires (which I bought for him) but that doesn't seem to be enuf for him, as he now wants to SFA it! I guess that makes me guilty of being " ... an accessory after the fact .." /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Also visit the site for ideas/upgrades for my future "exploring" (in my dreams). I've both downloaded & printed out the excellent DIY article on converting a York AC compressor for air use. Now all I need is a DIY article on how to build an on-board welder . This site has definitely been a great resource & I'm very thankful for its existence.
 
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What kind of 'return' does off-roading destruction offer to society as a whole? None, that I can see.



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Thats easy. The land is still available for use by everyone.

Your above quote is the exact same logic the government uses when they raze your family home to put in the new highway. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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What kind of 'return' does off-roading destruction offer to society as a whole? None, that I can see.



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Thats easy. The land is still available for use by everyone.

Your above quote is the exact same logic the government uses when they raze your family home to put in the new highway. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

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Come again? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

How's an area that's been destroyed "... available for use by everyone."? Don't you mean it might still be of interest to just a few "off-roaders" since the other off-roaders would be off 'conquering' *fresh* (non-)trails.
 
Well, all I can say is go wet your driveway with a garden hose. Then go park your wheeling vehicle there. Now spray the underside. If you don't see many, if any, rainbows then apparently not.

The average wheeling vehicle is taken apart all the time and usually has very limited amounts of petroleum products on them.

Next, it'd take a lot to do any damage. If we're talking a leak that loses a quart of whatever every 3,000 miles we're talking virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things. Mother nature can take care of a lot of such abuse if kept in small amounts. Is a stream going to be happy if 1,000 vehicles dripping a quart every 3,000 miles crosses it in one day? Nah. Is it going to survive thirty or forty vehicles with only half a dozen vehicles leaking anything? You betcha. It'll never know. The clown upstream that dumps his sewage or his laundry water next to the stream is causing far more pollution than you can imagine.

The streams are more polluted by the storm drains on our very own roads. Tractor-trailers alone create more pollution than the cars that traverse the same roads. And I'm only talking about non-air pollution.

If you ever noticed, you'll see that if it hasn't rained for 3-4 days and then it rains the road is VERY slippery for about the first half an hour. That's from pollution that just falls off vehicles.



If you want to talk about trail use, that's a whole new can of worms. Do offroaders tear up the land? Yeah. Does it make that much of an impact? Nope. There is virtually no difference between a 10 mile ORV trail and a 10 mile hiking trail. While the ORV people have a habit of making a mess of the ground the hikers do as well. Hikers like to tear the crap out of foliage over broad areas. They have a habit of packing out more than they pack in no matter what anyone says. The only difference is you see two ruts going through the woods instead of 3-4 footpaths.

Keep in mind that there are assholes in all forms of recreation. There will always be people getting blamed for other people's stupidity.

I suggest instead of people pissing and moaning about damage being done that they clean up public forests. Any and all common use of forest lands eventually returns to its natural state. Little impact is done by any form of use (whether on a bike, on a horse, or in a truck) in the grand scheme of things. However, trash and other solids are a real problem.

I don't see any Envirotards or bicycling or any other kind of non-hunting non-offroading club on Michigan's Adopt-a-Forest website.
http://www.cleanforests.org/volunteers.shtml
 
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Come again?

How's an area that's been destroyed "... available for use by everyone."? Don't you mean it might still be of interest to just a few "off-roaders" since the other off-roaders would be off 'conquering' *fresh* (non-)trails.


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Going back to one of my other statements, if you want to argue about "destroying" public land (through "renewable" activities like wheeling, hiking, logging, etc) instead of saving open space in the first place, by all means devote time to fighting the other people that want open space too.

Either side is pretty dumb at this point wasting valuable time money and effort fighting for or against ORV usage of public land. Imagine how much more public land there would be if we weren't wasting time with what little we have now? of course, I don't hear much of wheelers petitioning to have areas opened for the first time, it always seems to go the other way, so it's necessary to defend the privilege you already have.

People can fight about usage of public lands by ORV's all they want, but in a lot of cases, the wheeling (out here)takes place on private land as much as public, and it's only through the "graciousness" of the timber companies that we can even use it. Until people start dumping trash of course.

Wrath is entirely correct. I see a LOT more trash around wheeling areas than I do hiking areas, and thats makes wheelers a prime target, even though the majority are not bad.
 
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