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D44 crossover problems *FYI**PIC*

Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Much bigger than 5/8" studs and your going to lose the structural strength of the knuckle itself - less knuckle material on the outside of the stud holes.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Ahh..

I'd say that the unfortunate minimal size of the top of the knuckle and the bolts all in a line is the biggest shortcoming for that setup. If they were spread out more or triangulated I'd bet this wouldn't be an issue.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

They aren't all 3 in a straight line, 2 of them are in a straight line while the 3rd one is offset.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

I think one thing thats being missed by this thread is that the D44 knuckle while in a crossover configuration is being subjected to forces that it was not designed to handle.

Something has to give and in this situation its the bolts/studs. When I still had a D44, I ran the Avalanche arm and the arm is what decided it wanted to give. This during the first outing. Scary!!

I've heard about these Caterpillar bolts, and with a little research I found that they are made to meet or exceed grade 8 strength specs. I've also been told by an aircraft mechanic that aircraft grade bolts will exceed grade 8 as well.

There is a specialty fastener shop in Long Beach, CA. where I live called "Deering Industries", where they sell aircraft quality fasteners and above. If I were still running a D44, I would spend the coin and get the 3 studs custom made that exceed grade 8 standards. But thats just me.

If you would like to get a quote or an idea of your options, I looked up the number for you.

DEERING INDUSTRIES
3300 CHERRY AVE, LONG BEACH, CA 90807
Phone: (562) 595-1668


Hope this helps...
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
They aren't all 3 in a straight line, 2 of them are in a straight line while the 3rd one is offset.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're pretty close. They're not offset enough to withstand the kind of forces we're talking about.

Waxer's idea sounds promising.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
Waxer's idea sounds promising.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear ya, i'm going to start checking around in my area to see if i can find something like this up here. Hell, if i could find out what kind of material they are made out of, I could prolly make them /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Thanks for the info Waxer, and welcome back. You were in basic right? /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

now whats better though, a bolt or a stud? i know some people run studs while others run bolts.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

this makes no sense, where are you guys getting your sdtuds from? I run crossover and actually cracked the hell out of the frame but I still have no signs of stud issues on the knuckle. i run all of the stock steering stuff except of course the arm, and i dont have any trouble, maybe you guys are just getting low qualoty studs and are having issues.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

My studs were from Sky Manufaturing. My arm and spacer are also from them. My steering is basic crossover.

Stock pump (and only 1 belt instead of 2)
stock box with 2wd sector shaft
Ford #1104 arm
homebuilt drop draglink with McQuay Norris ES 2234R TRE's
Sky arm
Sky spacer
Sky studs
Jeep D44 knuckle machined, drill, and tapped by ORD

I am really thinking about coverting to 5/8" bolts. My local Ace Hardware cares the 5/8" 18tpi tap in stock. I just bought the EZ outs to get my broken studs out and some grade 8 9/16" bolts to use in place of studs.

Are the CAT bolts or Aircraft significantly stronger then Grade 8? I have a CAT dealer right by my work. I can probably find the Aircraft stuff too.

Which bolts would be the strongest? Aircraft, CAT, or Grade 10?

Harley
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Aircraft stuff would be the way to go...but good luck finding bolts in 9/16 or 5/8" About the only thing that I could think of that might be that big would be propeller bolts. That is a good thing because they are very strong (not all aircraft bolts are made the same!)

Regular AN3 - AN8 type stuff is 125,000psi in tension and 76,000psi in shear. That is right around grade 8 specs but made to much higher quality control. They are easy to find up to about 1/2" (that would be an AN8) but over that isn't too easy to find...but they do make them larger.

The strongist stuff they make for aircraft stuff is 180,000psi in shear...very strong stuff (300,000psi in tension /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif) and you will pay for it (if you can find them).

There are other points to look into. Your stud failed at the stress risor (root of the thread). If you can get a stud that would have that root be up in the steering arm (or the 1" block you have) you would get rid of most of the effect of that stress risor...you might even want to look into all thread studs.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Not all aircraft bolts of a similar size are stronger than a Grade 8. There's different specs for aircraft hardware; the most common are:
- AN (Army-Navy)
- MS (Military Standard)
- NAS (National Aerospace Standard)
The order I listed them in is, GENERALLY SPEAKING, weakest-to-strongest, in comparable sizes. As with any rule, though, there's plenty of exceptions.
For this application, I'd look into using an NAS653 thru NAS658-series bolt, which has a 6-point head, 95,000psi shear strength, and is made of titanium. This is a close-tolerance bolt, which means that if the bolt hole is sized properly, the bolt will need to be lightly "tapped" through the holes (or put in the freezer for a couple hours, which is actually the preferred method) to ensure there's no relative movement between the parts being fastened. A thin coat of anti-seize compound should be used as well, to minimize the chances of dissimilar-metal corrosion (BAD THING in a steering system...)
The idea of using dowel pins to help locate and stabilize this setup is great, as long as special care is taken to ensure proper alignment of the dowel pin holes AND the bolt holes. If they're out-of-alignment, it'll set up a stress riser on the bolt(s) at the shear plane, and the bolt WILL break in shear. Same will happen if the boltholes and/or dowel pin holes are a sloppy fit to the bolts.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

I found these that I can get locally most likely. Any idea how Cat bolts stack up against these or a place where I can get aricraft stuff in Phoenix?

http://www.almabolt.com/online%20catalog/Hex_Head_Cap_Screws_Gr._9.html

These Super 9 bolts are supposed to be 20% stronger then grade 8 which should make a 9/16" Super 9 bolt similar in strength to a Grade 8 5/8" bolt. I think the Super 9 stuff is supposed to be stronger the ARP stuff too. Don't know for sure though.

Harley
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Somehow I recall Watson saying his studs are going to be 190,000 PSI or so, which will probably be even stronger than grade 9.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

What is the AN, MS, NAS designations for 9/16" fine thread (18tpi I believe) 4" long? What are the shear stregths of each variety? Thanks

Harley
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
This page shows ARP fasteners compared to Grade 8. If Super 9 is 20% stronger then grade 8 then Super 9 should be stronger then ARP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he's making them in house. I don't think they're ARP.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
What is the AN, MS, NAS designations for 9/16" fine thread (18tpi I believe) 4" long? What are the shear stregths of each variety? Thanks

Harley

[/ QUOTE ]

With AN type hardware the first # is 1/16". An AN9 bolt would be 9/16" (AN8 would be 8/16" = 1/2"). The next # is the length. AN bolts are sold by "grip" length - the length of the un-threaded shank of the bolt. A bolt about 4" long would be a -36 or -37 (3-29/32 and 4-1/32 respectivaly)...

So the bolt you would want in the regular AN3 - AN20 would be:
AN9-36

If you wanted something a bit stronger (that one above is about as strong as grade 8) you would be looking for something like NAS 624. They are 12-point heads and are about 108,000psi in shear (180,000psi tension). I am sure there are others out there.

If you want to get some more good info on the subject take a look at Carroll Smith's (R.I.P.) "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook" It is a real good book with all sorts of info in it.

In that book he as this to say about "superior to SAE Grade 8 bolts":

[ QUOTE ]
There are at least three corporations presently hyping their version of superior to SAE grade 8 bolts. They are junk. They have always been junk and, presumably, they will alwasy be junk. In these cases, superior to Grade 8 actually means they may be harder than SAE Grade 8. This usually means hard as in glass and hard as in brittle. If SAE felt any need for a series of bolt specifications superior to their grade 8, they would come out with grade 9 specs, which would include toughness and fatigue resistance as well as hardness and strength...
The super-whatever clames are pure moonglow--a sales gimmick designed to rape the innocent, the unwary and the ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ]
He goes on for a whole page on this /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif

Anyway...enough rambling (by me and Carroll /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)...

Aircraft Spruce should be one of the first places you call. If they don't have it I'm sure they would know someone who would. There is one about 30min from where I live (it is in Corona) and I have gotten alot of stuff from those guys.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
I believe he's making them in house. I don't think they're ARP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this in reference to the studs that ORD is selling now? From Off Road Design Web Page :

"ARP High strength stud kit: $25.00
If someone tries to sell you a cheaper stud kit, ask them the material and tensile strength. These have rolled threads, 8740 material and 190,000 psi tensile strength. This is the good stuff."

/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
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