Stomis
Professional Amateur
Or does anyone have a part number for metric studs that will work in the hubs? I ask because I want my back a front to use the same nuts with the same head size and thread on the trooper.
CK5
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Did 10 bolts ever come w/ metric studs?
- Thread starter Stomis
- Start date
not that i have ever seen . just 7/16 = 6 lug & 9/16 = 8 lug
I put new studs on my trailer when I got it, for reasons that escape me now.
I ended up just going through the Dorman catalog and finding one with the same or higher knurled diameter and the right threading and whatever.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/dispstatichtml.aspx?PageName=HD_catalogs.html
Think you want the Automotive Hardware one, which brings you to
http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/131-136_Sec10_Part1.pdf
(etc ... maybe http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/149-154_Sec10_Part4.pdf ? )
-- A
I ended up just going through the Dorman catalog and finding one with the same or higher knurled diameter and the right threading and whatever.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/dispstatichtml.aspx?PageName=HD_catalogs.html
Think you want the Automotive Hardware one, which brings you to
http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/131-136_Sec10_Part1.pdf
(etc ... maybe http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/149-154_Sec10_Part4.pdf ? )
-- A
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Alright. All in due time. Thought I might just get lucky.
Blazinaire
1/2 ton status
The later model trucks (new body IFS trucks 1988+) came with 14mm studs but I don't think they will fit in the front hubs correctly... could be wrong.
Some others and I have looked into this before. There is a 1/2" stud that can be used in the front, but I can't remember if it is a factory application for something or only available from ARP. I wanted to go 9/16 front and rear and searched through the Dorman catalog to no avail. Having different lug nuts front and rear isn't the end of the world, so I've just lived with it (7/16 front, 9/16 rear). You might even be able to find some that take the same socket.
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Yeah but 7/16ths and 12mm is close. I should be able to find something with the same shoulder or very close.
Done. I'll abbreviate the post in the next two paragraphs.
Rears: Dorman 610-480 studs listed will press into the stock holes (this is for the later 14MM studs used in the 14SF BTW). Way more stud length than needed. Verify your axle stud knurling diameter before attempting, at least on the 14MM lug studs. There may be different knurl diameters out there, I could find no consensus on which specific stud (if there was ONE) was used in the 6 lug 14SF applications.
Fronts: Dorman 610-136 Use 5/8" drill bit for the hub. 16.5MM for the rotor. Stud is quite short, even though it's physically almost the exact same design as the 7/16" one, just larger diameters. If you get anything other than the open end "plain" lug nuts (tapered portion of nut no larger than the wrench flats) you will have more lug nut than stud. I measured mine, with open end "bulge style" lug nuts (tapered portion larger diameter than wrench flats) and the nut is somewhere around .8" tall. I ended up with approximately .6" of thread engagement. Well over the rule of thumb some use, thread engagement equal to diameter of bolt, but under what seems to be considered ideal, thread engagement equaling 1.5x diameter. Use old rotors to support the hub so you can square it to the (big) drill press table. Line bit up to existing hole by eye as best you can. When satisfied, drill, letting the bit center the hub.(Edit: Home Depot!! says the fitment is this: 1967-1969 Dodge Charger,Coronet 5.2L 6.3L 7.0L 7.2L, 1967-1968 Dodge Coronet, 1967 Dodge Charger since Dorman quit making them. Apparently Chyrsler part numbers 2823236 or 2944950, or "Barnes Systems DN610-136")
Added pics here http://community.webshots.com/album/583247475eQvOPx Sorry, none of the front completed.
Good luck.
I've spent the last few days ordering promising Dorman studs (6 different ones to be exact) from the local Napa, and none of them appear to work.
My truck has 14MM in the rear, 7/16" in the front.
I've looked at all 12MM, 14MM, 7/16", 1/2" and 9/16". Nothing in the Dorman catalog (or ARP) seems to be just right, and when it comes to wheel studs, I'm not going to play "close enough".
Either the knurling is in the wrong spot (for the front,stock bites into the hub, which has a gap between the lug head to knurling to accomodate the rotor), the shoulder is too long, meaning the lug nut would bottom out before it snugs against the wheel, or the knurl diameter isn't large enough to swap.
Edit: Dorman 610-136 (available from summit, jeg, or ebay, or special order from chain auto parts places) is almost a direct replacement for the stock front stud, except it's bigger knurl and of course 1/2". Shoulder length is exactly the same, OAL is the same, knurling is in very similar location. Originally a '69 and older Dodge application (Charger, etc). Will annotate here when I get my hands on some.
Edit: Got some. 610-136 IS the 1/2" to use for the front, best I can find. It's a near mirror image for the stock 7/16" front stud. Stud head diameter is .780" (slightly smaller than stock 7/16" head) so it will fit in the recess on the back of the rotor. Additional measurements of stud are: un-knurled portion of shoulder length: ~.312". Knurled portion of shoulder: ~.405. Knurl diameter given is .637. Its within .002 of that. Note: the shoulder portion (un-knurled) is ~.647" diameter (16.5MM is the closest drill size)...so two drill bit sizes to get the studs to pass through the rotor and still have knurling bite into the hub. 10 Bolt rotor thickness (stock?) at hole for hub is .45". The hub is .515" thick. I initially thought 16MM would be the drill bit for the hub, I was wrong. Use 5/8".Plug for vendor on ebay who went the extra mile and measured the head diameter before I purchased: staplesautoparts2 I can recommend for all. Certainly better to order two of those and one box of 10 from summit to make 12. Additionally, docsautoparts1 is another vendor I can recommend who took the time to respond to my inquiry. qty10 of these studs are presently listed for $13.34 w/free shipping.
Rears should be easy, 1/2" studs for the rear are numerous. Rear stud needs to be a MINIMUM of 2" to be safe, as was the stock 14MM stud. Stock 14MM stud was ~.610 knurl diameter, ~.640" shoulder. 2" length is close to the appropriate length if using drums and stock wheels.
610-480 appears to be very close to the stock 14MM studs (at least the ones in my axle) at .619" knurl, 2.25" length (with unthreaded end), and a .656 shoulder. The 610-480 will press into the axle without redrilling the 14MM stud holes.
Edit Edit: Getting to be the beginnings of a lug stud tech article. Although not really tech, information gathering?
39/64th bit will get you close to the right hole for .619" knurl. Be prepared for that, the bits aren't easy to find local.
I had no luck with ARP or Moser, however I didn't spend any time checking Milodon's listings.
As soon as I acquire the drill bits, I will start work on this.
Note that some machine shops will re-drill the rear axles, I was quoted $50/axle locally for this. However, with the massive size difference in the brake drum holes, I wasn't real comfortable using 7/16" studs on them. 1/2" isn't much better, but it is larger. Worst case, I re-drill the drums. Besides, most 7/16" studs don't have nearly enough shoulder/knurling on them to remain supported through the thicker axle flange (besides overall length not being enough), and without a hub flange for the wheel to hit (IFS 14SF hub flange 1/2" smaller diameter than the early 10 bolt) I felt the studs would take a lot more bending force than they are designed for.
More info on 14SF measurements that might help determine knurling/length etc on the 14SF post I made. http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135125&highlight=14bsf
As far as I can tell, reaming the holes would be the way to get the "ideal" diameter to work with the knurling, but also from what I've seen, you don't freehand with a reamer, and I don't have a lathe to chuck everything up in to keep it square. I tried both 15.5 and 16MM drill bits. BTW, cheap chinese drill bits, drilling by hand, and not clamping the axleshaft=broken drill bits. Glad I didn't pay much for the attempt.
Checked the factory service manual, calls for 88ft lbs on the 7/16" studs, so after putting some lube on the lug studs, I put them on at 75ft lbs. Did the fronts a second time, a few took a fair bit turning more to seat and finally stop at 75ft lbs. Hit them again after pulling out of the garage, didn't notice any had loosened up. I will of course put a couple miles on them, and verify torque again.
I pressed in the fronts, hit the rears in with a hammer. The fronts took a fair amount of force, I am not sure I'd want to abuse lug studs or the nuts by pulling them in place.
Rears: Dorman 610-480 studs listed will press into the stock holes (this is for the later 14MM studs used in the 14SF BTW). Way more stud length than needed. Verify your axle stud knurling diameter before attempting, at least on the 14MM lug studs. There may be different knurl diameters out there, I could find no consensus on which specific stud (if there was ONE) was used in the 6 lug 14SF applications.
Fronts: Dorman 610-136 Use 5/8" drill bit for the hub. 16.5MM for the rotor. Stud is quite short, even though it's physically almost the exact same design as the 7/16" one, just larger diameters. If you get anything other than the open end "plain" lug nuts (tapered portion of nut no larger than the wrench flats) you will have more lug nut than stud. I measured mine, with open end "bulge style" lug nuts (tapered portion larger diameter than wrench flats) and the nut is somewhere around .8" tall. I ended up with approximately .6" of thread engagement. Well over the rule of thumb some use, thread engagement equal to diameter of bolt, but under what seems to be considered ideal, thread engagement equaling 1.5x diameter. Use old rotors to support the hub so you can square it to the (big) drill press table. Line bit up to existing hole by eye as best you can. When satisfied, drill, letting the bit center the hub.(Edit: Home Depot!! says the fitment is this: 1967-1969 Dodge Charger,Coronet 5.2L 6.3L 7.0L 7.2L, 1967-1968 Dodge Coronet, 1967 Dodge Charger since Dorman quit making them. Apparently Chyrsler part numbers 2823236 or 2944950, or "Barnes Systems DN610-136")
Added pics here http://community.webshots.com/album/583247475eQvOPx Sorry, none of the front completed.
Good luck.
I've spent the last few days ordering promising Dorman studs (6 different ones to be exact) from the local Napa, and none of them appear to work.My truck has 14MM in the rear, 7/16" in the front.
I've looked at all 12MM, 14MM, 7/16", 1/2" and 9/16". Nothing in the Dorman catalog (or ARP) seems to be just right, and when it comes to wheel studs, I'm not going to play "close enough".
Either the knurling is in the wrong spot (for the front,stock bites into the hub, which has a gap between the lug head to knurling to accomodate the rotor), the shoulder is too long, meaning the lug nut would bottom out before it snugs against the wheel, or the knurl diameter isn't large enough to swap.
Edit: Dorman 610-136 (available from summit, jeg, or ebay, or special order from chain auto parts places) is almost a direct replacement for the stock front stud, except it's bigger knurl and of course 1/2". Shoulder length is exactly the same, OAL is the same, knurling is in very similar location. Originally a '69 and older Dodge application (Charger, etc). Will annotate here when I get my hands on some.
Edit: Got some. 610-136 IS the 1/2" to use for the front, best I can find. It's a near mirror image for the stock 7/16" front stud. Stud head diameter is .780" (slightly smaller than stock 7/16" head) so it will fit in the recess on the back of the rotor. Additional measurements of stud are: un-knurled portion of shoulder length: ~.312". Knurled portion of shoulder: ~.405. Knurl diameter given is .637. Its within .002 of that. Note: the shoulder portion (un-knurled) is ~.647" diameter (16.5MM is the closest drill size)...so two drill bit sizes to get the studs to pass through the rotor and still have knurling bite into the hub. 10 Bolt rotor thickness (stock?) at hole for hub is .45". The hub is .515" thick. I initially thought 16MM would be the drill bit for the hub, I was wrong. Use 5/8".Plug for vendor on ebay who went the extra mile and measured the head diameter before I purchased: staplesautoparts2 I can recommend for all. Certainly better to order two of those and one box of 10 from summit to make 12. Additionally, docsautoparts1 is another vendor I can recommend who took the time to respond to my inquiry. qty10 of these studs are presently listed for $13.34 w/free shipping.
Rears should be easy, 1/2" studs for the rear are numerous. Rear stud needs to be a MINIMUM of 2" to be safe, as was the stock 14MM stud. Stock 14MM stud was ~.610 knurl diameter, ~.640" shoulder. 2" length is close to the appropriate length if using drums and stock wheels.
610-480 appears to be very close to the stock 14MM studs (at least the ones in my axle) at .619" knurl, 2.25" length (with unthreaded end), and a .656 shoulder. The 610-480 will press into the axle without redrilling the 14MM stud holes.
Edit Edit: Getting to be the beginnings of a lug stud tech article. Although not really tech, information gathering?
39/64th bit will get you close to the right hole for .619" knurl. Be prepared for that, the bits aren't easy to find local.
I had no luck with ARP or Moser, however I didn't spend any time checking Milodon's listings.
As soon as I acquire the drill bits, I will start work on this.
Note that some machine shops will re-drill the rear axles, I was quoted $50/axle locally for this. However, with the massive size difference in the brake drum holes, I wasn't real comfortable using 7/16" studs on them. 1/2" isn't much better, but it is larger. Worst case, I re-drill the drums. Besides, most 7/16" studs don't have nearly enough shoulder/knurling on them to remain supported through the thicker axle flange (besides overall length not being enough), and without a hub flange for the wheel to hit (IFS 14SF hub flange 1/2" smaller diameter than the early 10 bolt) I felt the studs would take a lot more bending force than they are designed for.
More info on 14SF measurements that might help determine knurling/length etc on the 14SF post I made. http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135125&highlight=14bsf
As far as I can tell, reaming the holes would be the way to get the "ideal" diameter to work with the knurling, but also from what I've seen, you don't freehand with a reamer, and I don't have a lathe to chuck everything up in to keep it square. I tried both 15.5 and 16MM drill bits. BTW, cheap chinese drill bits, drilling by hand, and not clamping the axleshaft=broken drill bits. Glad I didn't pay much for the attempt.
Checked the factory service manual, calls for 88ft lbs on the 7/16" studs, so after putting some lube on the lug studs, I put them on at 75ft lbs. Did the fronts a second time, a few took a fair bit turning more to seat and finally stop at 75ft lbs. Hit them again after pulling out of the garage, didn't notice any had loosened up. I will of course put a couple miles on them, and verify torque again.
I pressed in the fronts, hit the rears in with a hammer. The fronts took a fair amount of force, I am not sure I'd want to abuse lug studs or the nuts by pulling them in place.
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I'm glad not everybody forgot about this idea.
Is a 16.5mm (0.650) drill bit easier to get and/or much better than a 21/32 (0.656)?
If the unknurled is 0.647, and you are drilling the hub at 5/8 (0.625), is that amount of interference based on the dimensions of the 7/16 stud or some other standard?
I a little confused by the discussion of lug nuts. Isn't the threaded portion of this stud the same as the stock stud?
16.5mm is cheaply available (and made) from overseas vendors on ebay. It just didn't make sense for me to pay the money for a high quality drill bit when I wasn't absolutely positive it was even going to work, and the fact that even my Dad's large drill press doesn't have a precise head...I knew the drill bit being cheap was only one of the issues I might have. I used an old rotor to test drill/fit everything except the rears.
As for the reason I went with the 16.5 vs. something maybe more common like the 21/32, it was simply that it was the closest theoretical fit (ignoring chinese "tolerance"). I figured if the shoulder did any work to hold the rotor in place vs just clamping pressure from the lug nut/stud, a bigger hole might lead to some movement of the rotor, which could be bad. Since the closer bit was around $9, it made sense. Use "best offer" on ebay BTW.
For some reason the diameter of the knurl and unknurled portion isn't the same...you would THINK the shoulder and knurl OD would be the same diameter. The shoulder is a larger enough diameter that to get the shoulder through the rotor, yet allow the knurling to bite into the hub, you need two different size holes, one for rotor one for hub. I'd have to check the stock studs to see if they had the same mis-matched shoulder/knurling, but I figured that was irrelevant.
Threaded portion of the stud is essentially the same length as the 7/16" stock ones, but the lug nuts I bought were thicker than the 7/16" ones. These 1/2" lug nuts are .80" thick, while the 7/16" lug nuts were around .60". With stock studs and the lug nuts I was using before, the end of the stud was flush with the "top" of the nut. The new, longer lugnut therefore has about .20" that is not threaded onto the stud. I did not take that into account when I bought lugnuts. Not that it matters other than aesthetically, since there is only so much stud to thread onto.
You might be able to find some lug nuts that aren't as tall, but I didn't look too hard. 611-027 has the same "length" as the open ended 7/16" lug nuts. http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/173-178_Sec10_Part8.pdf At least with a stock wheel, those lug nuts should look better installed than what I have.
That clear things up?
As for the reason I went with the 16.5 vs. something maybe more common like the 21/32, it was simply that it was the closest theoretical fit (ignoring chinese "tolerance"). I figured if the shoulder did any work to hold the rotor in place vs just clamping pressure from the lug nut/stud, a bigger hole might lead to some movement of the rotor, which could be bad. Since the closer bit was around $9, it made sense. Use "best offer" on ebay BTW.
For some reason the diameter of the knurl and unknurled portion isn't the same...you would THINK the shoulder and knurl OD would be the same diameter. The shoulder is a larger enough diameter that to get the shoulder through the rotor, yet allow the knurling to bite into the hub, you need two different size holes, one for rotor one for hub. I'd have to check the stock studs to see if they had the same mis-matched shoulder/knurling, but I figured that was irrelevant.
Threaded portion of the stud is essentially the same length as the 7/16" stock ones, but the lug nuts I bought were thicker than the 7/16" ones. These 1/2" lug nuts are .80" thick, while the 7/16" lug nuts were around .60". With stock studs and the lug nuts I was using before, the end of the stud was flush with the "top" of the nut. The new, longer lugnut therefore has about .20" that is not threaded onto the stud. I did not take that into account when I bought lugnuts. Not that it matters other than aesthetically, since there is only so much stud to thread onto.
You might be able to find some lug nuts that aren't as tall, but I didn't look too hard. 611-027 has the same "length" as the open ended 7/16" lug nuts. http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/173-178_Sec10_Part8.pdf At least with a stock wheel, those lug nuts should look better installed than what I have.
That clear things up?
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They do after this conversion! 3/4".
Lug nut clears the factory center caps as well. It did with the 14MM studs/nuts too, but it was closer.
Lug nut clears the factory center caps as well. It did with the 14MM studs/nuts too, but it was closer.
