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Did Some Data Logging with TunerPro R/T

dyeager535

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As long as you see some cross counts (from lean to rich) on a narrowband O2 during light throttle, likely it's working properly. TBI data speed is incredibly slow even by that era's standards (TBI is 160 baud, TPI is 8192) so you miss a LOT of information due to how fast things change in and on an engine. Coupled with the narrowbands terrible resolution, that leaves a lot of guesswork.

Knock count will climb as the sensor detects knock (I'm probably improperly interchanging knock and ping), so you should be seeing the total count of knock as a number. If it sticks at 10 (IIRC the ECM will only count to 255 and start back over at zero) then you probably aren't seeing significant knock. That's one reason I like the .csv. I can see the conditions a millisecond before knock happens, and have a good idea where timing needs subtracted, or fuel added, to prevent that knock. My experience has been that the ECM will do a pretty good job of pulling timing if knock happens, and do so more aggressively as knock gets worse, but if that is the case, you'll hear the knock, and you'll feel the "bog" as the timing is cut. Even when my timing and fueling was off by a good margin, knock only happened in small bursts, so not huge knock numbers, but they were spread out over a long period of time as they ramped up then ramped back down.

All this is one reason I generally don't like seeing people modify an engine from base, if they aren't all in on tuning. You simply cannot change something on an injected engine (at least until the OEM's started using wideband O2s) without causing a conflict with the stock tune. When someone tells you they changed something and "it runs fine", you can look back at your datalog and realize that isn't the case. Ignorance of fact doesn't make a presumption reality. Running and not knowing any different, is not the same as running as good as it can or should.
 

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I found out that my Fuel Pressure was a lot higher than I thought...about 14.75. I was having some trouble getting my fuel pressure set where I want it, and I starting doing some research on the internet about it.

I found on GearHead.com a post on setting fuel pressures that I did not know. Apparently with a liquid filled gauge located in the engine compartment (like mine is) when they get hot the fuel pressure reading is way off. The post said you should only look at the gauge reading when the gauge is cold, and forget whatever it says when it is hot.

I finally got it set to 13-PSI, and did some data logging, and it did start to go in the right direction a little. Before it was averaging 105 BLM's (maxed out rich). Now the BLM average is starting to climb a little at true 13-PSI. I have lowered my fuel pressure since this log session to 12-PSI, and will take another data logging session after I have driven my truck for a while.

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dyeager535

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Based on your BLM's, you arent short of fuel. However you adjust for injector lb/hr, you've done that correctly? In closed loop it should be pretty easy to get the idle and light load cells to around 128.

IMO if you've got enough fuel, you need to pull timing if you are seeing knock. And its best to bring it out prior to the event. I take timing out based on how bad the knock is.

Get the BLM's in check, add or pull timing where the engine wants and needs it.

Are you emulating? Much easier to make changes on the fly. I made many a trip down the local short section of highway so I could tune down and back. Get the BLM's or timing on the way down, make changes, head back, repeat a thousand times lol. Always thought it would be cool to have one person driving and one making the changes on the fly.
 

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I found out that my Fuel Pressure was a lot higher than I thought...about 14.75. I was having some trouble getting my fuel pressure set where I want it, and I starting doing some research on the internet about it.

I found on GearHead.com a post on setting fuel pressures that I did not know. Apparently with a liquid filled gauge located in the engine compartment (like mine is) when they get hot the fuel pressure reading is way off. The post said you should only look at the gauge reading when the gauge is cold, and forget whatever it says when it is hot.

I finally got it set to 13-PSI, and did some data logging, and it did start to go in the right direction a little. Before it was averaging 105 BLM's (maxed out rich). Now the BLM average is starting to climb a little at true 13-PSI. I have lowered my fuel pressure since this log session to 12-PSI, and will take another data logging session after I have driven my truck for a while.

full

Some pressure gauges have a small button that relieves the pressure differential so you can use it hot or cold. I think I have 2 of them from summit and they both have it.
 

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Are you emulating? Much easier to make changes on the fly. I made many a trip down the local short section of highway so I could tune down and back. Get the BLM's or timing on the way down, make changes, head back, repeat a thousand times lol. Always thought it would be cool to have one person driving and one making the changes on the fly.

I have not learned to use the Emulating function yet. Is that where the lap top becomes the engines computer? Or is the Emulating function for up-loading new instructions when burning a chip for the ECM?
 

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Some pressure gauges have a small button that relieves the pressure differential so you can use it hot or cold. I think I have 2 of them from summit and they both have it.

Mine is an in-house Jeg's one. Probably off the same Chines assembly line as the Summit one. It appears to have a rubber cap or button on it. I do not know if I have to take the cap off, or I just push the rubber plug to activate the pressure relief valve under it. The post that I read says that when the liquid in the gauge gets hot it will not read the proper pressure. It did not state that releasing the pressure would make a hot gauge start reading correctly.
 

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Mine is an in-house Jeg's one. Probably off the same Chines assembly line as the Summit one. It appears to have a rubber cap or button on it. I do not know if I have to take the cap off, or I just push the rubber plug to activate the pressure relief valve under it. The post that I read says that when the liquid in the gauge gets hot it will not read the proper pressure. It did not state that releasing the pressure would make a hot gauge start reading correctly.

You just push the rubber button down before reading it.
 

dyeager535

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Well, laptop becomes the PROM anyway. So when you make a change to the .bin, it immediately makes a difference. Fun to do with idle timing and what not, as you can hear and feel the difference. But it's a lot quicker than burning a chip, installing it, then taking a test run and datalogging again.

Its pretty easy to use. I dont find quite as much utility when I need to make a very small change, but when trying to get BLM's correct, and eliminate knock, it sure does make it quicker.
 

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I was looking into TunerPro's emulation function, and I would have to have an expensive piece of hardware called an "AutoProm", which is run inline with the data cable, in order to do any emulating.
 

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I was looking into TunerPro's emulation function, and I would have to have an expensive piece of hardware called an "AutoProm", which is run inline with the data cable, in order to do any emulating.

I wouldn’t worry about that just yet. I have one and it works ok as long as I strap it down before driving anywhere. The thing tends to slide around and disconnect itself if you don’t, which makes for a fun “change of performance” if you know what I mean. ;)

But yea, a few too many knocks. If you can do a drive while monitoring and see when they start happening it would help. If they all show up while is idling in the driveway, there might be some other mechanical thing making noise and fooling it into thinking it’s knock. I would imagine a stock tune that’s running rich wouldn’t be knocking quite so easily? Not an expert on that though. One example is that I’m able to get it to hear a knock by up shifting really fast that the clutch makes an audible noise that the computer always reads as a knock. And once you get one knock count, it just propagates to all the other cells making it hard to tell when it popped up. If you save the log, you can run through it and see when the first one comes and then when additional knocks happen.
 

dyeager535

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Yeah, I'm running the autoprom. Anymore I'm beginning to think a software based solution is the answer...the sf512 chips are no longer made (real ones, not the fakes, TBI may use a chip still being made) the autoprom acts like its battery is dead, and I've had connector/chip connection issues. Have enough issues to worry about instead of whether a problem is programming/programming electrical, or vehicle-based. Not that Moates' equipment is bad quality, it's been in use for years, but the truck is dusty and bounced around a hell of a lot. Vibration doesnt help any of the tuning components.

Embedded lockers, megasquirt, something along those lines, if I was going to spend the money today.
 

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I wouldn’t worry about that just yet. I have one and it works ok as long as I strap it down before driving anywhere. The thing tends to slide around and disconnect itself if you don’t, which makes for a fun “change of performance” if you know what I mean. ;)

But yea, a few too many knocks. If you can do a drive while monitoring and see when they start happening it would help. If they all show up while is idling in the driveway, there might be some other mechanical thing making noise and fooling it into thinking it’s knock. I would imagine a stock tune that’s running rich wouldn’t be knocking quite so easily? Not an expert on that though. One example is that I’m able to get it to hear a knock by up shifting really fast that the clutch makes an audible noise that the computer always reads as a knock. And once you get one knock count, it just propagates to all the other cells making it hard to tell when it popped up. If you save the log, you can run through it and see when the first one comes and then when additional knocks happen.

You think my knock count is too high. I have the timing at 3-degrees advance right now. I can back it down a couple of degrees. When ever I loosen the distributor enough to move it I try to set it at about 1-degree advance, but after I tighten down the distributor it jumps up a degree or two from the tightening of the distributor. I will take it to 1-degree retard, and then tighten the distributor...that should put it right around zero degrees timing. Then run another log session to see if the knock counts go down.
 

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Yeah, I'm running the autoprom. Anymore I'm beginning to think a software based solution is the answer...the sf512 chips are no longer made (real ones, not the fakes, TBI may use a chip still being made) the autoprom acts like its battery is dead, and I've had connector/chip connection issues. Have enough issues to worry about instead of whether a problem is programming/programming electrical, or vehicle-based. Not that Moates' equipment is bad quality, it's been in use for years, but the truck is dusty and bounced around a hell of a lot. Vibration doesnt help any of the tuning components.

Embedded lockers, megasquirt, something along those lines, if I was going to spend the money today.

I cannot use EBL because I have an ECM/PCM. EBL does not work with any ECM that controls a transmission, unless you go to a lot of trouble trying to wire in a piggyback system that connects an ECM/PCM to an ECM that does not control a transmission. .
 

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You think my knock count is too high. I have the timing at 3-degrees advance right now. I can back it down a couple of degrees. When ever I loosen the distributor enough to move it I try to set it at about 1-degree advance, but after I tighten down the distributor it jumps up a degree or two from the tightening of the distributor. I will take it to 1-degree retard, and then tighten the distributor...that should put it right around zero degrees timing. Then run another log session to see if the knock counts go down.

It’s supposed to be set to zero so the computer controls the timing accurately. Make sure you unplug the wire before you check the timing though. Sounds like you already know that though.

Ideally the knock counts should be zero, but in reality a few pop up now and then. I usually get around 5 or so within an hour of driving.
 

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It’s supposed to be set to zero so the computer controls the timing accurately. Make sure you unplug the wire before you check the timing though. Sounds like you already know that though.

Ideally the knock counts should be zero, but in reality a few pop up now and then. I usually get around 5 or so within an hour of driving.

I was looking around on the internet to see how many knock counts are considered normal. It is hard to find much, but 5 to 10 seems to be optimum. Having 90 to 100 is considered danger zone. The knock count mine has is not considered danger zone, but is definitely not optimum. I have reset my time down to 0-degrees with my fuel pressure set at 12-PSI. When I get a chance I will go out and do some more data logging with those settings.
 
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